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Panda_lover2195 · by **Panda_lover2195** on Fri Jun 04, 2010 4:49 pm

I disagree with you entirely, because it has been proven, that once the sperm and the egg combine, is when the process of the baby being created starts, yes it isn't fully developed obviously, but at that particular time the cells start to be created. And by the time you get the results that you are pregnant, its been a couple of weeks, and by that time, millions if not billions of cells have been created. Yes there are different stages of the development of the egg, embro, fetus and what not. But just because the baby isn't completely developed or hasn't gotten the outline of a finger or something, doesn't mean that it isn't living, and doesn't have a nervous system......it could still have one, but it is not completely created, because you never even gave the baby a chance....and what does that say about a person......we get mad and say its horrible when we here a mother killing one of her kids, when they are of young ages. But you think its ok to kill her child just because its not fully developed, and not ready to come out of the utrus???? I think it is wrong, all the way around....IF YOU DON"T WANT A CHILD THEN EITHER DON"T HAVE SEX, OR TAKE THE NECESSARY PROCAUTIONS....EVEN IF THAT MEANS GETTING YOUR TUBES TIED!!!!!!!!!

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:18 am

Yes. I think it is okay to kill it. It is just a collection of cells. It's no more alive than a tree, it's no more sentient than a rock or a cellphone. If ending a biological system which has 0 chances in the real world is whats needed to let the mother have a shot of having a comfortable life without the hell she may have to go through THEN SO BE IT.

You wouldn't complain if I cut down a tree, or a snapped a twig, shattered a cup, or melted a plastic bottle.

And frankly, you're a little closed minded. You've not taken into account anything I've said, and simply ignored it. Rather than try to counter my arguments with thought out arguments of your own, aka debating, you're just being all angry, blinded by your own twisted moral compass. You'd rather people suffer because it's "not murder."

Be ashamed of yourself.

Writing Nitrate · by **Writing Nitrate** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:45 am

I personally, do not believe in abortion and I'm not going to condemn anyone who does. I understand that certain circumstances might make people consider an abortion such as rape. Though it is not the child's fault it was created out of something so terrible as that. Indeed a child has a heartbeat 13 days after consumption. Does that not make it a living being? Albeit, I kill bugs all the time and they are innocent beings doing nothing more than scaring me. Honestly though, I can only see an abortion being 'right' in my eyes in one way. That is the Doctor telling me that if I carried the baby any longer neither I or the baby would live. There would be no way to save either of us. Even then, I would probably try and die trying.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:11 am

Writing Nitrate wrote:Albeit, I kill bugs all the time and they are innocent beings doing nothing more than scaring me.

But that sounds really hypocritical... "Hey don't kill this thing! But its perfectly fine to kill millions of these tiny things because theyre not the same species as me."

Edit:

Would you object to me washing my hands? After all, I'm killing millions of bacteria doing so. And by very definition, bacteria is a living thing. Essentially the same as a baby: A cluster of replication.

Writing Nitrate · by **Writing Nitrate** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:18 am

It is hypocritical of me, but it true. If I were a protestor out to change the entire world to believe the same way that I do; then by all means I would want you to jump down my skin about killing small things like bugs. As it is, bugs scare me, I kill them, but

Writing Nitrate wrote:I personally, do not believe in abortion and I'm not going to condemn anyone who does.

I wouldn't have stated that I kill bugs if I didn't know that people would find it hypocritical of me. I was making the point myself. so that everyone understand that I do find that killing ANY living thing is morally wrong, outside of circumstantial cases such as self defense, and though it doesn't scar me one bit to do it to something that terrify's me, it would to something such as a butterfly, or a snake for they don't scare me.

I would not object to you washing you're hands, even if you are killing bacteria. By all means play devil's advocate with me ;). You wash your hands at your own risk though for you're killing good bacteria as well.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:32 pm

Writing Nitrate wrote:It is hypocritical of me, but it true. If I were a protestor out to change the entire world to believe the same way that I do; then by all means I would want you to jump down my skin about killing small things like bugs. As it is, bugs scare me, I kill them, but

Writing Nitrate wrote:I personally, do not believe in abortion and I'm not going to condemn anyone who does.

I wouldn't have stated that I kill bugs if I didn't know that people would find it hypocritical of me. I was making the point myself. so that everyone understand that I do find that killing ANY living thing is morally wrong, outside of circumstantial cases such as self defense, and though it doesn't scar me one bit to do it to something that terrify's me, it would to something such as a butterfly, or a snake for they don't scare me.

I would not object to you washing you're hands, even if you are killing bacteria. By all means play devil's advocate with me ;). You wash your hands at your own risk though for you're killing good bacteria as well.

So killing a self-conscious being with fully functioning nervous systems that can react to harmful stimuli and tell them they are in pain is OKAY with you because it isn't human/doesn't scare you?

Boy am I glad you don't run the country.

Writing Nitrate · by **Writing Nitrate** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 12:41 pm

Well firstly, I never said anything along the lines of, I would kill anything that wasn't human as you just insinuated. I wouldn't kill any animal if I didn't honestly HAVE to for some type of survival reason.

You know honestly I can't see why you harvest such intense feelings against people who are pro-life. It's not like we all hate people who are pro-choice, some of us myself included, are fairly cordial people. You are not going to change my mind, and I'm not trying to change yours. It isn't that I don't understand your rationalization either because I do, or else I wouldn't have pointed out specific things. What I just don't get though is why, if I am pro-life and was simply stating that, you who are pro-choice can't just let it be. That doesn't make any sense what so ever. Usually it is the reverse and pro-life people are stubborn trying to make pro-choice 'see the light'.

You are not going to make me feel any shame for killing a bug, when I won't kill a baby, just because it is more developed than a human embryo in the stage that abortion takes place. It is a loosing battle and I would think that someone as intelligent as yourself, or as you seem to be, would understand that. You don't offend me. I am a pleasant person who doesn't often get angry.

Oh and about me running the country, I would more than likely be better at it in 30 years that Obama is right now. At least I wouldn't have chosen to do such idiotic plans that he has incorporated. Then again I don't want to go into politics because I am a Conservative and my option for most things would to be A) Shoot them in the kneecap or B) Shoot them in the head. That isn't what this topic is about though.

That being said.

I am pro-life. That's, that end of story.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:13 pm

You do realise what this part of the site is called, don't you?

Man, I'd say 84% you're religious, 90 you're Christian and 97 someone in your family is, too.

I can't just "let it be" because of the progress that pro"life" gets in the way of. Aborted cells and fetuses are extremely useful. Of course, you probably disagree because "every child has a right to live" [regardless of the terrible conditions they'll be raised in, they're alive!!].

It's like the dark ages all over again, "morality" and especially 'religious views' stopped scientific progress by 500 years. We should a lot more advanced in medical and general scientific knowledge by now, but because people are too stuck up in the belief that morals are somehow the only compass of right and wrong in this world, we're stuck here.

Writing Nitrate · by **Writing Nitrate** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:22 pm

I do realize what this part of the site is called, though you might think it, I am not an idiot.

Also, being religious has nothing to do with being pro-life. My friends, one is a satanist, two are wiccan's, one is agnostic and the other one is atheist. All of them believe that abortion is wrong, so stick that where the sun don't shine if you will.

Every child doesn't necessarily have the 'right' to live but I personally think that if they have a life, and the opportunity, they could be given a chance. I'm not shouting on about how if there isn't an option give them up for adoption now am I? No, because I know that once that child is in foster care I have no control over who get's it or what happens to the child. We don't know if they'll end up with you're idealist happy family who loves them, or the brutal family who might abuse them, perhaps they stay in government service hands their entire lives. Who knows.

I do know that fetuses are extremely useful thanks. Stem cell research is one of the greatest things Doctors are doing at the moment and what better place to get it than from a baby that is to be aborted? I'm just saying on the whole, I would not abort a baby. I'm 17, I haven't lived near long enough to have any other formulated opinion than that and I'm not going to argue, because it would turn into an argument rather than a debate, whether or not morality is stopping science. That would be like saying Scientists have no morals, when clearly they do or else they wouldn't be out there trying to do things like find a cure for cancer.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:29 pm

Satanists don't exist any more, as they're all 15 year old kids who've done 15 minutes of internet based research, and Wiccans don't follow actual Wiccan views, just the stuff they've heard about [much closer to modern Paganism, which is also a lot different from what it start out as.] And Agnostics are just sitting on the fence anyway.

Pah! Next you'll be telling me that Tesla had morals!!

Morals have nothing to do with doing the right thing.

Also, we're not here to debate if you would have an abortion.

Writing Nitrate · by **Writing Nitrate** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:34 pm

Now, now don't yourself into a hissy fit. Satanists do exist, my friend didn't do 15 minutes of internet research, she has been this way for 6 years and believes in invoking the right of herself. I don't actually know anything about Paganism so can't argue there. I did not that you didn't mention the atheist so ha.

Yeah, don't know who or what Tesla is, save for it's an energy weapon on Command and Conquer.

We weren't debating if I would have an abortion though. I just said that I wouldn't which is by I believe abortion is wrong. Isn't it all the same thing?

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 1:39 pm

Oh, great... Bloody La Veyans.... Next you'll be telling me your friend has no idea who Baal or Lilith is. [I was a traditional satanist for years, mostly due to historical research (most of it's ties date into Egyptian mythology and sometime before it)]

Also, just go google Tesla. He was one of the most important and amazing scientists to ever exist. [He also invented an earth quake machine. Seriously. A machine that created earth quakes. He destroyed it on the day it was going to be tested out of fear that the military would take it.]

Kaytayy Emm · by **Kaytayy Emm** on Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:10 pm

Sheoul wrote:
Cloaked_Schemer wrote:As I've stated in the other thread, I don't believe in abortion. I think it's wrong and very selfish of women, just because they can't be arsed to go into labor. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it doesn't matter if she was raped or artificially inseminated in her sleep, there's really no excuse for abortion. You can put the thing up for adoption and never have to look at it again, and guess what? You're not killing an innocent baby in the process =3

Whether I think it should be legal or illegal doesn't matter as it already is legal anyway.

I'm late coming in to this, so apologies if anything I say has been said prior.

Cloaked, I mean to say the following with nothing but respect, and obviously I don't mean to offend, but your words ring off like someone who's never actually been raped, or even been pregnant. You've never been in the circumstances a lot of people have.
Let's overview!

Tons of people's lives would be utterly destroyed if they were to have a baby [specifically underage/young mothers, etc]

It could be, as you said, a rape-baby [apologies for that term, but I dunno what else to call it] which is just terrible. Would you want that? A rapist to father your child, for someone to come over and FORCE you not only to go through the utter hell of being raped, but also to bear the pain of childbirth and raising the child? And what of the child? How exactly do you tell them "Sorry kid, your real dad is an evil f***-head. You're probably okay, though. Probably."

They just might be completely unable to look after the child. Lack of money, etc.

The mother could be on drugs, or going through some kind of alcoholic addiction or otherwise dangerous/destructive path that would - without a shadow of a doubt - destroy the babies chances of growing to be a normal child [biologically speaking. It would have a few, if not many, birth defects, and, if it was born while the mother was shooting up, it gets to spend the first few weeks of its life battling a crack addiction.]

What's your healthy alternative? Adoption. Sorry, you've probably never been exposed to what adoption is actually like. It's not like Disney, it's horrible. A child, especially those from a young age, can have their lives ruined by these places. They fall into cracks, and don't come out again. Get caught up with the wrong crowds, and there they go. Adoption is not all sunshines and rainbows and instant happy-families. No, it's terrible. And given that I've spent several years of my life in the care system, I likely have more grounds on which to speak of the matter than you do.

So what's left? Abortion. Is it murder? No. It isn't. Murder is defined as the act of ending a sentient life. A thinking, feeling being. A fetus, while it's still young enough to be eligible to be aborted, isn't developed enough to think, to feel, to comprehend, to remember, to see, to speak, to communicate anything, because there's nothing happening in its head to be communicated. They are, quite literally, just a collection of rapidly replicating cells. That's IT.

If I killed a tree you'd have no problem with it. If I stomped on a beetle, you probably wouldn't care. Hell, if I killed a bear out of self defense [they are quite dangerous] you'd probably shrug it off. But when it comes to something insignificant, that's going to cause dozens of problems for itself and its family before its even able to think a single thought, a series of electric signals flicking binaries, on off, on off, simple. Biological. Functions. You suddenly see it as wrong.

We're also forgetting one factor here. The child. If its in a circumstance where aborting is the best option, is it really such a good idea to bring it into the world? Would you really let a mother who cant care for a child properly give birth it and have to make sure it makes it, purely out of your warped and frankly extremely biased view. Or make it be forced into the adoption system? To be shoved into a very tough life [you do know how many of those kids commit suicide and or develop serious or clinical depression, right? No, you probably don't...] just because you want to make the world all moral and clean and wonderful. Well it isn't like that. It never will be. It's do and do it right. There is no such thing as right or wrong in this world. Everything is a grey area. Absolutely everything is context sensitive, every coin has two sides, and for every bad that you see in this, there is ultimately more good.

But then, I like to keep a completely impartial view on everything.

I completely agree.

Panda_lover2195 · by **Panda_lover2195** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:53 pm

I maybe closed minded, but its definatly not the samething killing a bug, and killing a human.....Yes, they are both innocent, but that is all they really have in common. Your opinion, is your opinion. But I feel strongly by what i say. i am not saying you or anyone has to agree. But your logic isn't logical, because they aren't human, and don't really have human emotions.....and i understand if a person feels it is necessary to do what a person feels necessary, but there are just somethings, you have to put above yourself, including your children.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 2:56 pm

An unborn fetus, that is still at the age where you can still abort it, CANNOT form opinions, it cannot think, it cannot feel, it cannot comprehend, it cannot DO ANYTHING THAT YOU USE TO SET IT APART FROM A BUG OR BACTERIA.

When did people stop paying attention in biology?!!?

Panda_lover2195 · by **Panda_lover2195** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:03 pm

How do we know that, they say that when the egg is fertilized that it starts to reproduce cell for everything, so maybe it can't feel completely, but there are full grown developed children and adults that can't feel if they break things or anything since they have some type of disease, does that mean it would be ok to kill them, since they can't feel, and depending on what other problems they have can't comeprehend....I personally don't think its right, but i am not gonna hate those or say they are bad people because they did it, but i would say they made a bad choice. And if you actually pay attention in BIOLOGY they tell you once the egg is fertilized it starts to produce cells, whihc techinically makes it alive.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:15 pm

Those adults, given this magical nameless condition you've mentioned, would be sentient. They'd be self-aware. Self-conscious.

Of course, you'd probably not object to killing a tree, or bacteria on the floor, or a spider. Would you? Bloody hypocrites.

Panda_lover2195 · by **Panda_lover2195** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:39 pm

Its not being hypocritical at all...they aren't even the same if you actually get techinical. They aren't made of the same things as humans at all....and if you want to bring biology into it, then you should know that. Bacteria is killing it is not a bad thing, because if you didn't then it would make you sick, maybe even sick enough to die....and I know that being in a cooking school.

Kashim · by **Kashim** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:46 pm

Who ever said you have be religious to be an extremist? I think Sheoul proves that point. From my point of view, he's an extremist atheist, and I think I speak for everyone here when I say, no one likes an extremist.

As for me, I believe abortion is not right.

Sheoul · by **Sheoul** on Thu Jun 10, 2010 3:47 pm

Right, you do know that your body is absolutely dependent on both the good bacteria [such as the stuff lining your intestines] and bad bacteria [for your immune system to keep strong].

Also, I can't believe you. You have NOTHING to put an undeveloped, unthinking, unconscious, cluster of replicating cells above living things that contribute [E.g. spiders kill flies, wasps, etc. a baby that doesn't even have fucking nipples yet can't do anything.]

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