[[DISCLAIMER]]

These are my beliefs. I'm not flaming on anyone, I'm not hating on anyone, I'm just saying how I see things, trying to clear up some misconceptions, answer some questions, and the like. Meaning I don't want anyone running in here and flaming and hating, because that's not the point of this thread. If you wanna discuss, go right ahead. This is, after all, the Discussion forum.

I'm gonna try and keep this as organized as possible, but I've got a whole lot of ideas going through my head. I'll try and order them out in a way that makes sense.

[[QUESTIONS]]
These are different questions and such that I've been asked, sometimes by several people, and these are answers that might help clear up some comfusions people have.
Credit to Dionysus' fortune telling thread for giving me the idea for this.

Q: Have you always been Christian?

No. In fact, I was only saved last October. My family is Catholic, but none of them seriously practice. They tried to get me to be Catholic when I was young, but actually, it just made me hate the concept of it.

Q: Were you into religion beforehand?

I was completely devoted to Wicca immediately before I was saved, and had been for... five years, yes. I hated Christianity.

Q: Why become a Christian then?

I originally went to Wicca because it promised me real, solid evidence that it was legit... you know, feeling stuff, power, etc, etc, etc. I'm sorry, but it was never there for me. I believed it because at that point, I believed in the ideals, since I thought they were true. However, once I moved away from Hamilton and came here, a new friend convinved me to come meet his Youth Pastor. They had a worship session while I was there, and I had my first experience of meeting God. Frankly, once you've felt him, I don't really think it's possible to simply ignore him anymore.

Q: Are you sure you felt God? That sounds like a bunch of crap to me.

That question's like me asking, are you sure you've felt happy? You know you have, because you've felt it. You know. You can't give me solid proof, but you know. It's like that. I had a physical manifestation as well as an emotional and mental one. I know, 100%, that I felt God for the first time that day.

Q: What's that like?

The experience is what happens when you become filled with the Holy Spirit. It's a bit different for everyone. In Acts, a book in the Bible, is where this experience is first described. The Apostles are described as seeming like they were drunk, and as having spoken in tongues, with everyone present able to understand in their own languages. However, as I said, everyone manifests and feels it differently. Sometimes there are physical manifestations, such as crying, laughing, speaking in tongues, shaking, falling, dizziness, etc etc etc. Sometimes there are more inward ones, such as giddiness, black outs, visions, hearing God speak to you audibly, a feeling of being overwhelmed emotionally, etc etc. Sometimes there are mental manifesations, such as revelation, blessings for others, recieving Words of Knowledge for other people, etc etc. Personally I've experienced several of these. I have the bruises to prove a couple of them.

[[MISCONCEPTIONS]]

Alright, now to clear some stuff up.

First off, the whole rule thing, 'cause this one gets me the worst I think. Lots of people look at Christianity and the first thing they think is, "I gotta follow all of these stupid rules or else I'm gonna go to hell." And who likes rules? Nobody. No one likes rules. So, lots of people lose interest immediately.

However, in reality there really aren't that many rules. The Old Testament of the Bible is when salvation depended on following a strict set of rules. However, Jesus was sent to complete this for us, and die as a sacrafice to cover our sins, much like the Old Testament tradition of slaughtering an innocent lamb to cover sins. Jesus also changed the rules for us. He made it very simple: love your God, and love your neighbour. If you follow the rule of love, then following the rest of the commandments just comes naturally.

However, another thing changed. God made it incredibly, incredibly simple for us, even beyond that point. All he said we had to do was believe that Jesus was His son who died for our sins, and if we did that, then we were saved. Plain and simple. Once saved, He said to be like Christ. Who's Christ? He's God. They're one in the same person. Jesus was God in the form of man. And the Bible teaches us that God is love. So what do we have to do? Be like love. In other words, be loving. Simple, eh? Yeah.

Okay, furthermore, I. DO. NOT. HATE. LESBIANS. GAYS. BISEXUALS. WICCANS. ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

I'm very tired of people getting on my case about these things just because I'm a Christian. I don't support them, no. I don't agree that it's right, no. However, those are simply my beliefs. Thst doesn't mean I hate them because of it, not in the slightest; one of my best friends, who's female, has been telling me how much she likes me and would love to date me for nearly five years now.

Before you call me prejudiced, consider this: you don't think someone's being prejudiced if they say they don't think it's right that the druggy over there is smoking pot, do you? It's all a matter of opinion, realistically.
A Christian who isn't just talk and who actually lives the lifestyle will understand that you don't hate the person, you hate what they do. If someone's doing drugs, you don't hate them because they're a druggy. You hate the fact that they're doing drugs. And if they don't want help, then you know what? Alright. You leave it alone.

What's another one...

Oh yeah. I got this one the other day. The old, how can I call myself a Christian when I do this and this and this and blah blah blah.

Christians aren't perfect. Any who claim to be are ruining our name. We're just the same as everyone else, we screw up, we fall down, we do bad crap. The only difference is that as a Christian we feel we've got a safety net to fall back on, even if we do bad things.

Now, this opens up another thing. People seem to have the misconception that we teach that anyone will be forgiven of anything, as long as they just say a magic prayer. This isn't the case. If you don't actually repent, the forgiveness isn't there. God's not stupid, people. He's not gonna forgive someone who isn't actually sorry. This is why I totally don't agree with the whole confession thing they do in elementary Catholic schools. You know, where you go see the preacher, be all like, "My name is Bobby Joe, my last confession was three years ago, these are my sins" yaddayadda. And then he's all like, "Say three Our Father's and all is forgiven" blahblah. All you've gotten the kid to do is babble off some memorized verses. That's not going to help him unless he truly repents as well.

.....

I don't know if there's anything else to put here. I started typing this yesterday and now I just woke up and all my thoughts flew out of my head in my sleep.

This is all just my beliefs, remember. If you've got any debates, or wanna ask any questions, feel free to do so.

Blarg.

I got converted to Christianity once. I was 12 years old. My friend convinced me to come to his church's youth party, there was a giant trampoline, a rock wall, all sorts of fun. Then we all went into the church for a concert from a local Christian Rock band. And that was pretty lame. Then they stopped playing, and the Pastor got everyone who wasn't Christian to raise their hands. Then we were all taken into back rooms in groups of three or four max and told that if we didn't convert to Christianity we would burn in the fires of Hell forever. It was pretty scary for a twelve year old and two of his agnostic/atheist friends to be told that if they didn't join this religion and pray to god for their soul they would suffer for all of eternity, especially when they were locked in this room like they were at the principals office, and had a creepy old man talking to them like they were pieces of shit for not believing in God. So yeah, I swore to convert to Christianity, and tried to be one for a while. Eventually I decided, fuck this. If there is a God he wouldn't burn me in hell forever for not believing in him. And if there is a god like that, he doesn't deserve to worshipped and he can gargle on my hairy balls. So yeah, thats when I dumped the Christian bull shit.

I've heard this argument before. Consider this.

Our God is, according to our beliefs, perfect love. He's flawless and holy. Because of that, it's impossible for him to be with those who intentionally sin and feel no remorse for it. Also, it's like this: you're trying to be friends with someone. You never do a bad thing, all you ask is that they be friends with you and you'll do everything in your power to make life good for them. They say no and even though you try over and over again, they utterly refuse you. When it finally comes time for your party or whatever, and the door's been locked, if that person comes knocking, are you going to let them in? No, you won't. You'll feel bad, but you won't. The door's locked now. You gave them chance after chance after chance and they ignored you and spat in your face. You told them, you have till this time, then I can't let anyone else in. They ignored you, you can't let them in.

Also keep this in mind: the world's perception of good and God's perception of good are two different things. The world doesn't see anything wrong with divorce, for example. God does. So without following God, you can't really achieve proper goodness, according to that belief. If you believe in Him though, it's pretty easy.

You got treated pretty crappy though >.> As I mentioned up there, we're not supposed to be into that doom and gloom crap. That's an example of a Christian making a very big mistake.

If thats the way God works, hes a vain and arrogant asshole. What kind of parent would ever refuse their child entrance to their house? What kind of parent would ever hurt their child? What kind of parent wouldn't do everything in their power to make sure their child was a good person? Certaintly not a good one. If God exists, we shouldn't have to take that on faith or burn in hell otherwise.

I think that you were introduced to christianity in a sevearly crappy way.

I was a Christian up until i was 13/14 years old. In that time, I went to church every week, went to all kinds of events and clubs, and tried my best to follow the teachings. Then though, I started to think more logically about religion, about what it was I was claiming to support. I thought to myself, "Do I actually believe in this stuff, or do I just say that I do?". It turned out to be the latter. I'm not trying to bash anyone here, because at the end of the day it's your choice what to believe in, but I honestly can't see the sense in a supposedly omni benevolent God, who would willingly punish people just for using the gift he gave them (free will). That being said, some of the teachings of christianity, such as selflessness, Jesus dying for our sins, and a divine creator, have been embedded in me enough now so that I do actually believe them. In other words, I find it difficult to believe that God is "perfect", but part of me still wants to cling to the ideas of sacrifice and selflessness that the religion preaches. All of this leads me to one statement, I am thoroughly agnostic. At least for now.

...lalala...did that make any sense at all? I doubt it...

Its severely. And that wasn't my introduction, I had always known it had existed, and I had studied it to some extent (I view Christianity and the Bible as mythology, just like the Greek Gods). That was just the first time someone had tried to forcibly convert me.

And I belive that he does do all in his power to protect his childeren and get the best for them even if it's not material objects

Kira thanks for putting this out there. Maybe we can get some misconceptions cleared up.

I'm a Christian too, and like Kira, I don't hate homosexuals. If you doubt that, look at my signature. We hate the sin and not the sinner, and that's a very good philosophy for anyone, not just Christians. I have homosexual friends. I make a put of making friends from all walks of life.

And Gabriel, I'm sorry to hear about what you were told. I've heard people spout out that stuff about burning in hell too many times. Sometimes, that's because they don't adequate understand what their saying.

There's also a passage out of Angel and Demons by Dan Brown that talks about what you said about God being a parent that tackles those same questions. It talks about how our own parents let us learn from our mistakes. They don't always shelter us and give us the easy road. Like riding a bike for the first time. They don't always stand besides the handlebars and guide us along. And neither does God.

That makes perfect sense MEGAcya. I doubt the perfection sometimes myself, but all people doubt sometimes...

Yes, but your parents are always their to pick you back up. Just because you fall of your bike doesn't mean they throw you into a furnace.

He try's his hardest to pick his children up but some wont let him. Just like a parent would try their hardest to keep their children out of drugs and such. They can't controll their childs every movment but they can do their best to help.

One thing that, for me at least, makes it impossible to ignore religions like christianity completely, or to brush them off as 'mythology, like Gabriel said, Is something called the watchmaker theory.

It states that something as simple as a watch, is actually very complex, and needs intelligent design and craftsmanship to work properly. It goes on to say that the universe is infinitely more complex than a watch, so logically, it too must be designed and created.

Make sense? Let me put it another way.

Look at your computer right now. Imagine the place it was made. Now, lets suppose for a second that the factory explodes. What do you think the odds are that your computer could just fall together in that explosion, with every single part perfectly arranged so that it works as a flawless system? I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say that this is impossible.

Now, apply this to, say, the human body. Organs, tissues, bones, all working together in a way that allows a human to live and function. Then expand this to the complex arrangement of the earth, different forms of life, different habitats, water, dry land. The atmosphere has the exact amount of gasses needed to keep the planet insulated, and to keep everything living on it sustained. Then moving further out still, the planet is the precise distance from the sun to make it the right temperature, it rotates to give us the necessary night and day. Can you really say that, while a computer or mobile phone is too complicated to be made by an explosion, that everything about the earth could have fallen into place without some kind of divine intervention?

I could go on, there's still the first cause theory and the five proofs, but i'd rather not go into all of that just now. Basically, for me, this is unavoidable evidence that some kind of God must exist (though not necessarily an omniscient, omni benevolent and perfect one).

MEGAcya, you do make a good point that's been argued quite a bit. However, I think that you simplifying theories about complex existence being created without divine intervention, by comparing them to an 'explosion', is a bit insulting to some of us who do not believe in a greater power.

We're -- or, at least, I'm -- not saying that there was a big explosion and then there was existence. I'm saying that there was an elongated process of evolution and adaptation that led us to the complex things we have in existence today.

Which, in and of itself, is not as random as an explosion, nor as structured as having been created by any type of consciously-thinking mind.

Also, using electronics as your metaphorical comparison to, what I believe you are trying to say is life and organisms, is not quite apt. Computers and cell phones don't evolve, adapt, or grow.

Angleaya Z. wrote:He try's his hardest to pick his children up but some wont let him. Just like a parent would try their hardest to keep their children out of drugs and such. They can't controll their childs every movment but they can do their best to help.

Yes, but even if a child turns to drugs their parents would still let them back into the house, they would still love and help them whenever needed. They wouldn't get angry and wrathful at them and throw them into a furnace to burn for eternity. No matter how you look at it, the fact that god would banish people to hell for not believing in him makes him an extremely vain, and arrogant ass.


@Mega: The Watchmaker theory is a part of deism, also known as realism to some, which comes from early colonial times, and is in no way related to what I was talking about. It states that god created the universe to run itself perfectly, like a clock, and then he had no more interaction with it, and left it to run itself unhindered.

I supose it's easy to see it that way Gabriel. I think it's harsh too, but he has his reasons.

Ah...This is always a fun debate to take part in...I s'pose I'll argue too and see how this all works out...


I've been Christian all 13 or 14 years of my life, and logic, though I'm a Christian, would say it didn't exist. BUT there may be proof God exists, and that proof lies in the past. If you match up things in history with things in the bible, you'll notice some similarities. (Old Testament only)

You've all heard of the big bang theory, correct? When a flash of light occurred, creating the universe by pulling a series of matter and forming large spheres of is we call "planets". In the bible, it says that God summoned a flash of light and created the universe. There was also the fact that they found Noah's arc.

Of course, I'm a reasonable guy. I understand there are theories that conflict with the bible. Darwin's Theory of Evolution, for example. In the bible, it says God created humanity by summoning it into the garden of Eden. Darwin says bacterium evolved into fish-like creatures. Those fish-like creatures soon turned to fish. The fish soon evolved into fish beings. The fish beings evolved to apes, and apes made us. But there's one big flaw in his theory. The fact that, if he were correct, there'd be no more apes. We'd all be a perfect species by now, but we're not and this thread makes it obvious he's wrong. If we were truly perfect, we wouldn't have this discussion.

Again, I can be reasonable. I understand that the Christian God is NOT a God of full love. If He was, He'd permit homosexuality and bisexuality. If you commit one of the seven deadly sins, it gives Him the right to damn you to Hell if you felt no remorse.

As was said, a lot of people have misconceptions about Christianity. As long as you're a good person, go to Church a couple times a month, maybe read the bible and pray, you're in the clear. I'm not exactly the best person to talk to about converting to Christianity, but I do have a lot of insight for someone my age. I've sat down and thought about a lot of the worlds problems, prejudice being one of them. I've experienced plenty of prejudice for my religion and/or for my friends' religion. If you look, there are religions that are WORSE than Christianity. I'm not going to point any out, because I don't want to get anyone angry and I'm CERTAINLY NOT against other religions, though I am biased for my religion on this topic. It's not my right to say you're wrong if you're not Christian, it's God's job to judge you, and Jesus's job to save you from your sins. (Jesus did exist, by the way, and his body really did disappear from his grave.)

-Zukamimotu

Angleaya Z. wrote:I supose it's easy to see it that way Gabriel. I think it's harsh too, but he has his reasons.

I don't care what "reasons" he has. IF, and its a very big if, he exists, and he really works like that he is an arrogant asshat. In reality, the chances are far greater that that part was added in by the church during the extremely large parts of time where the church was extremely corrupt, to make their power absolute.

Gabriel_Whist wrote:

Angleaya Z. wrote:He try's his hardest to pick his children up but some wont let him. Just like a parent would try their hardest to keep their children out of drugs and such. They can't controll their childs every movment but they can do their best to help.

Yes, but even if a child turns to drugs their parents would still let them back into the house, they would still love and help them whenever needed. They wouldn't get angry and wrathful at them and throw them into a furnace to burn for eternity. No matter how you look at it, the fact that god would banish people to hell for not believing in him makes him an extremely vain, and arrogant ass.

God spends those that choose not to believe in him to Hell, yes, but I still would not call him vain or aggrogant.

He does not make use worship Him blindly. We have a choice. Someone said earlier that we have free will. If he was aggrogant or vain, we would worship Him blindly and have no free will. He is like our parents in another way. When we choose not to listen to them, their are always consquences.

Mobpeace, while you make a valid point, what you are saying is not necessarily in contrast with what I am.

The theory of evolution, is that a random change in genetics happens at the moment that an embryo or the like is made. Who is to say that some kind of God is not behind this? The book of Genesis is an allegorical representation of creation, meaning it is not to be taken as literally true. The seven days could represent periods of thousands of years at a time. The story was told to people who would have had very little understanding of any process actually used to develop the earth, and will of course have been made very simplistic because of this (in a similar way, Jesus used parables to explain a teaching). Going back to the point about evolution, who is to say that the mutation of genes can't be caused by God?

(sorry if I'm being unclear in what i'm saying here, my thoughts are pretty scattered and it's hard to organise what i'm saying.)

Revering to the comment about an explosion, I was actually likening that to the 'big bang' theory, which is often seen in arguments against religion (again, this could have happened, but who is to say it was not organised and made to happen by some kind of Omnipotent being?)

When I used the example of a mobile phone, or a computer, I was actually referring to the complexity of the objects in comparison to the natural world, not saying that they work in the same way (i don't see why you think that's what i meant..)

TheAlmightyForkNinja wrote:

Gabriel_Whist wrote:

Angleaya Z. wrote:He try's his hardest to pick his children up but some wont let him. Just like a parent would try their hardest to keep their children out of drugs and such. They can't controll their childs every movment but they can do their best to help.

Yes, but even if a child turns to drugs their parents would still let them back into the house, they would still love and help them whenever needed. They wouldn't get angry and wrathful at them and throw them into a furnace to burn for eternity. No matter how you look at it, the fact that god would banish people to hell for not believing in him makes him an extremely vain, and arrogant ass.

God spends those that choose not to believe in him to Hell, yes, but I still would not call him vain or aggrogant.

He does not make use worship Him blindly. We have a choice. Someone said earlier that we have free will. If he was aggrogant or vain, we would worship Him blindly and have no free will. He is like our parents in another way. When we choose not to listen to them, their are always consquences.

No, not giving us free will and forcing us to worship him would be tyranny. Forcing us to go to hell if we don't believe in him is a sadistic thing to do and makes him vain and arrogant. What he SHOULD do if he exists, is prove his own existence once and for all, and then let us decide to worship him or not, with no consequences for not worshipping him, so long as we aren't evil people. That is what a fair, kind and just god would do. One who would be worthy of worship.