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Well, again, Magic Sword? Cool. That works. Supernatural/super advanced metal? Alright! But if you assume that you can do the stuff that wandering just mentioned without any kind of justification, then you are a fool.

The internet is made up of fools, Azzy. I was sure you'd be used to it by now.

It would be just as silly as blocking a bullet with a light saber, but I bet if a light saber were used, nobody would point out the scientific folly.

If a bullet was fired into a light-saber then it'd likely get vaporized.

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:If a bullet was fired into a light-saber then it'd likely get vaporized.

Fail.

Given that some threads have ended very early, one (mine) has had a substitution, and others have been fairly stagnant, what's the estimated end-date for the round?

Mew: For any match that has been running without problems (no subs, still on normal schedule), I believe the round ends September 7th. Otherwise, it is up to Remaeus to decide, but I believe he wants all matches to have a month before they end.

Also, congrats to whoever won the recently locked match. Have fun in round 3!

Twilight, what do you mean in your last post 'switch between life and death'? I looked at your character bio, and I don't see anything about your character being able to resurrect himself after dying...And dying in and of itself would count as a loss anyway since we're not allowed to use Regen.

I'm also not sure what kind of a jump you're making regarding how Kiyoshi's powers work. My logic follows:

-He told you he was focusing on absorbing kinetic energy
-Your character's heart, while its beating, generates kinetic force. He takes that, so it stops beating and just kinda sits there unable to continue moving.
-This...Is understandably not good for a flesh and blood character.

I understand your logic for his brain. The brain doesn't have to move to function. But I don't understand the angle you're working from regarding the other two issues. The brain itself doesn't need to move to function, but it needs the heart to pump blood to it. And if the heart's been stilled that tends to result in brain-death. And death, since we're not allowed to use regen in the tournament is...Not something you bounce back from or persist through.

How about we address the fact that siphoning away kinetic energy isn't going to stop somebody's heart from beating? Nevermind, it is too painful to directly confront bad science with reason, so I'll just supply two articles and hope somebody actually takes the time to read and understand why the whole scenario is silly and lacking credibility.

Here is the wikipedia article on what kinetic energy is.

Here is another article that explains how the heart functions.

I will explain the logic hole Mewtwo made, tho':

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:Your character's heart, while its beating, generates kinetic force. He takes that, so it stops beating and just kinda sits there unable to continue moving.

The process of beating generates kinetic force, not utilizes kinetic force. It will continue to beat regardless of whether the energy generated by its beating is removed.

Edit: for those non-motivated people out there, here is a definition of kinetic energy - it basically says, kinetic energy is the result of motion, not the cause of motion. And given Kiyoshi's fairly arrogant statement below in conjunction with Mewtwo's explanation of his character, I think both should evaluate who has the poor grasp of science.

I would like to formally request a judgment in this match. My opponent has shown the constant inability of reading comprehension through out this match. The quote that appears within his latest post is from a PM that was between he and I. As stated, I want this matter judged as there should be no possible way for his brain to even think, as I stated his heart would not pump. The utter lack of ability to even understand his own skill set makes it hard for me to believe he can even comprehend what my powers can do.

In other words, I'm calling bullshit on this post. The fact that he's randomly added abilities to suit his needs has been annoying, but this latest "shifting between life and death" nonsense is a load of crap considering all of the Technocrats that have been involved in this match are not allowed to use their Nanomachine's regenerative properties. Let alone the above mention fact that he has no real concept of how wind works, nor how my powers work outside of basic conjecture.

Circ wrote:How about we address the fact that siphoning away kinetic energy isn't going to stop somebody's heart from beating? Nevermind, it is too painful to directly confront bad science with reason, so I'll just supply two articles and hope somebody actually takes the time to read and understand why the whole scenario is silly and lacking credibility.

Here is the wikipedia article on what kinetic energy is.

Here is another article that explains how the heart functions.

I will explain the logic hole Mewtwo made, tho':

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:Your character's heart, while its beating, generates kinetic force. He takes that, so it stops beating and just kinda sits there unable to continue moving.

The process of beating generates kinetic force, not utilizes kinetic force. It will continue to beat regardless of whether the energy generated by its beating is removed.

Edit: for those non-motivated people out there, here is a definition of kinetic energy - it basically says, kinetic energy is the result of motion, not the cause of motion. And given Kiyoshi's fairly arrogant statement below in conjunction with Mewtwo's explanation of his character, I think both should evaluate who has the poor grasp of science.

That's actually something I was discussing with a freind earlier, Our conclusion was that while Kyoshi could prevent Sirocco from moving about in the air, he wouldn't be able to restrict Sirocco's muscle movements, seeing as how muscle movements are chemical, Kyoshi couldn't stop the muscles from moving period. It would take a lot of force to keep Sirocco from moving, and the way saw it was the harder sirocco struggled, the more draining it would be for both parties.

Our conclusion was that while Kyoshi could prevent Sirocco from moving about in the air, he wouldn't be able to restrict Sirocco's muscle movements, seeing as how muscle movements are chemical, Kyoshi couldn't stop the muscles from moving period.

That's actually a very good point. I hadn't thought about it from the chemistry/biology angle there.

Edit: The point made about muscle contraction, upon reflection, I entirely agree with. It's a good distinction to make.

However, if Kiyoshi intended to halt all non-chemical forces in his opponent's body, this wouldn't stop him from halting the flow of blood. The heart could beat and contact, but if he was absorbing the kinetic force this produced he'd be stopping it from transfering to and moving the blood in the veins. The heart could indeed still be beating, but not accomplishing anything by it other than using up oxygen stores.

This also doesn't cover the question both Kiyoshi and I asked. If regen is disallowed, then why would character be allowed to spontaneously die and resurrect in the middle of a match, especially when that ability isn't listed in their bio?

From the fight:

TwilightShade wrote:He had subconscious control over his third arm wind, so perhaps he could still finish the battle alive.

TwilightShade wrote:Sirocco was in big trouble at the moment, but with careful planning and techniques, he knew that he could at least keep himself from dying once again during the battle. Because quite frankly, going through the normal death process was a pain in the ass. Wind guardians didn't normally get special treatment, but Sirocco had been cleared to freely shift between life and death at will for the duration of the tournament.

From the bio:

TwilightShade wrote:Upon dying, he was given the chance to fight in a tournament which granted fighters temporary control over an element. Sirocco entered, and won the grand prize, which was permanent control over said element, which happened to be wind.

TwilightShade wrote:This granted him immortality in the afterlife so long as he performed his duty as a guardian.

TBH, I don't know what TwilightShade really means, given their character isn't even alive in the traditional sense. Maybe they're going into zombie mode. Although I don't really see them write anything about using that "ability." I would expect the description thereof to be more dramatic and indicative of something actually happening than merely stating they have the power to do so. As such, I can only conclude they haven't actually used it.

And also, they should be able to use their wind magic to aid movement of their body.

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:However, if Kiyoshi intended to halt all non-chemical forces in his opponent's body, this wouldn't stop him from halting the flow of blood. The heart could beat and contact, but if he was absorbing the kinetic force this produced he'd be stopping it from transfering to and moving the blood in the veins. The heart could indeed still be beating, but not accomplishing anything by it other than using up oxygen stores.

Gravity would keep the blood flowing downward, as that is different from kinetic energy.

That's aid from an outside source then. But the pushing effect of his wind against the body that Kiyoshi's field is surrounding probably wouldn't do much good, since instead of moving his limbs the force generated would just be sucked up by Kiyoshi.

Edit:

I want to clarify something here.

This debate came about largely due to a lack of details. However, Kiyoshi's actions hadn't been contested so far, and he's been using the same basic techniques of his character in the same fashion for both fights up to this point.

I did not put up my questioning of Twilight's post to have everyone else provide explanations for him on the issue. That is his job as the sparrer; including necessary information in his post (or at least in his bio). And he didn't do that. I still would like further clarification from Twilight himself on the logic he was using.

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:That's aid from an outside source then. But the pushing effect of his wind against the body that Kiyoshi's field is surrounding probably wouldn't do much good, since instead of moving his limbs the force generated would just be sucked up by Kiyoshi.

Edit:

I want to clarify something here.

This debate came about largely due to a lack of details. However, Kiyoshi's actions hadn't been contested so far, and he's been using the same basic techniques of his character in the same fashion for both fights up to this point.

I did not put up my questioning of Twilight's post to have everyone else provide explanations for him on the issue. That is his job as the sparrer; including necessary information in his post (or at least in his bio). And he didn't do that. I still would like further clarification from Twilight himself on the logic he was using.

To your first point (before the edit), let me again reiterate that kinetic energy is the result of motion, not the cause of motion. Therefore, the wind magic - being magic, and therefore beyond the scope of what is discussed here, as far as we know - would not be absorbed, and would be able to push Twilight's character around, thus causing him to move. Think of it like a marionette.

To your second point, if people are making unreasonable claims on the grounds of science, I think that makes it an open floor for everyone to butt in. Since you aren't fighting Twilight, I also believe that is a fair indication for everyone to jump in and argue the claims you are making.

Edit: Mewtwo, while Twilight's death and life thing is confusing and probably without merit (like, for example, claiming to arbitrarily stop somebody's heart from beating ...), even before that it seemed you had it out for them, based on when you brought the fight up with me on AIM a couple of days ago out of nowhere and said Twilight lacked basic reading comprehension and was using abilities beyond the scope of their bio. Yet, when I read their fight over at that time, I didn't see anything of the sort, and you didn't provide me with any examples. You said they don't understand science, but at no point do they claim to understand science; their character uses magic. However, you seem to be demonstrating a significant lack of scientific knowledge as evidenced above. Now, since you're the first to open your mouth on the forum with this, I'd like an explanation as to why you have such an issue with Twilight that you'd try to capitalize on it in a fight you aren't even a participant of.

Circ wrote:
To your first point (before the edit), let me again reiterate that kinetic energy is the result of motion, not the cause of motion. Therefore, the wind magic - being magic, and therefore beyond the scope of what is discussed here, as far as we know - would not be absorbed, and would be able to push Twilight's character around, thus causing him to move. Think of it like a marionette.

Negativo. Yes, he could use his wind magic to push against his body. And that resulting pushing force would be the energy that Kiyoshi is draining for power. It's the exact same scenario that I mentioned with Twilight's heart. Force would be getting generated, but instead of it being transferred the way that was intended Kiyoshi's character would be feeding off it instead. Gravity would also be exerting continuous force on his blood as well, I don't deny that. But I don't think unoxygenated blood pooling lower in his body would be exactly beneficial.

Circ wrote:To your second point, if people are making unreasonable claims on the grounds of science, I think that makes it an open floor for everyone to butt in. Since you aren't fighting Twilight, I also believe that is a fair indication for everyone to jump in and argue the claims you are making.

True enough. And it's not exactly possible for me to stop them. But it doesn't change the root of what I was asking.

I don't particularly care for people to come up with explanations for other people's actions. It's well and good because maybe everyone can learn a bit from it and from getting different people's points of view across. But what I was specifically asking for was for Twilight himself to clarify the leaps in logic he was using to justify either his actions, or his interpretations of why an attack wouldn't work. A clear layout of Point A to Point C, when the evidence and explanation his opponent provided says he's going in that direction and he's not circumventing Point B to get there.

Circ wrote:you brought the fight up with me on AIM a couple of days ago out of nowhere

Out of nowhere? YOU mentioned that you'd be fighting one of the two of them next and I recommended that you read the thread to get an idea of the reading comprehension ability and writing ability of Twilight just incase you ended up fighting him, which yes, I do find sub-par.

Circ wrote:and said Twilight lacked basic reading comprehension and was using abilities beyond the scope of their bio. Yet, when I read their fight over at that time, I didn't see anything of the sort, and you didn't provide me with any examples. You said they don't understand science, but at no point do they claim to understand science; their character uses magic.

He had problems understanding things Heat wrote (regardless of Heat himself using abilities that weren't listed in the bio he provided what he wrote as occurring in the arena wasn't hard to visualize). He's done so as well in his current fight. And if two opponents in a row say they have gripes with how another person is either missing points in their writing or hard to understand in their own right then that's a sign there's some weight to the argument. And your interpretation of what he's done as being either logical or reasonable has been at complete odds of what I've felt it to be upon my own reading. We both discussed that over AIM. If you still disagree with me, fine. I'll agree to disagree with you there for the sake of preventing a fest from forming here in the OOC thread, but I'm not going to continue to argue my viewpoint on it versus yours on a detail by detail basis in a Nonpareil-esque fashion. I care considerably more about Twilight's response, since his is one that hasn't been heard yet.

Circ wrote:However, you seem to be demonstrating a significant lack of scientific knowledge as evidenced above.

I already admitted that a possibility posed by Manticore was one I hadn't considered. I just proposed a counter-argument that was plausible in the scope of abilities being used and what I feel was a reasonable amount of cause-and-effect.

Circ wrote:Now, since you're the first to open your mouth on the forum with this,

See, that's what I'm talking about. It's going from being debate to getting genuinely testy (at least that's the tone I get when I read it).

Circ wrote:I'd like an explanation as to why you have such an issue with Twilight that you'd try to capitalize on it in a fight you aren't even a participant of.

That's a pretty harsh accusation for you to level at my personality and my motivations. Don't ever phrase something like that to me in such a way again. You know me better than that by now.

To clarify: Twilight's explanation/justification in his post did not seem thorough enough to me. By asking him about it (asking him, not you, him. Not really anyone else either, just him) I posed the question, and I did so before Kiyoshi had a response up. Twilight had opportunity then to make himself more clear, and to then hopefully have future posts be clearer as well.

[sarcasm]Stunning, yeah, I know, wanting to see someone maybe do a bit better than they were, and not hear me say that I wanted to belittle them, right? I mean, I never pose suggestions for people to improve in the judgments I get asked to render. Ever. I just bash on people and then provide no follow-up feedback and I do so for no other reason than my enjoyment.[/sarcasm]

So you know in advance, I'm not going to respond to anything else you write on this subject either, Circ. This post alone is pushing a page in length (I think, since I didn't paste it into Word yet). I really do hate borderline-flamefests like this, don't encourage them, and the only reason I really responded to this length was because the way I read your posts was as an attack on both my integrity and my character. Given that we've gotten along fairly well for a while now that's something I'm going to address quick and to the point. Any further comments on the issues of the fight itself I'd really, really, really prefer to hear from Twilight.

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:

Our conclusion was that while Kyoshi could prevent Sirocco from moving about in the air, he wouldn't be able to restrict Sirocco's muscle movements, seeing as how muscle movements are chemical, Kyoshi couldn't stop the muscles from moving period.

That's actually a very good point. I hadn't thought about it from the chemistry/biology angle there.

Muscle movements are bioelectrical. Electrical impulses from the nervous system trigger muscle fibers to contract or relax. The chemical part occurs back in the brain, but the actual action upon the muscle itself is a result of electricity. That's why muscles spasm when subjected to electrical current. This would also have worked on Twilight's heart, as electrical impulses from the autonomous nervous system govern its action as well.

Kiyoshi could have easily drawn on that energy for his attack. Unfortunately he didn't.

Well, to spare you all from battleing each other for several more hours, I don't even think Twilight's seen your original comment in this thread yet Mewtwo, we were talking about our 2v2 last night around 9:30, and he said he had to prep for his first day of school and logged off AIM.

He'll probably see this later on in the day.

SSJ3Mewtwo wrote:Negativo. Yes, he could use his wind magic to push against his body. And that resulting pushing force would be the energy that Kiyoshi is draining for power.

If a rock is rolling down a hill (gravity) and bumps into something with no kinetic energy, that something is going to be pushed by the rock regardless of the removal of kinetic energy. Wind magic could accomplish the equivalent...

Aside from that, I was being severe with you and I apologize. I sensed an undo level of hostility and my injustice meter ticked, but I should have left Twilight to respond to such if they felt in any way mistreated. Yes, Heat and Kiyoshi have indicated they've had issues with Twilight's posts (although I, personally, was fine with all but two specific areas of his most recent fight, which is maybe why I don't see what the big fuss is about, because they didn't seem any worse than the faux-pas other players have made thus far in the tournament), so there is obviously some truth to the issue - I guess it is a matter of how much.

What I find funny about this whole debate and Kiyoshi's method of attack in the first place is an obvious effect of removing Kinetic energy from an area that would actually be a much more pressing matter than trying to stop his heart that way. This going into chemistry(?) from the atomic level and I may very well be wrong on it, but bear with me a sec.

Now let's think about motion in general here. Not just the things we see like moving a limb or a ball rolling, but the invisible motion of atoms and molecules going on in everything around us. Now depending on the phases of matter a material is in the dispersion of subatomic particles will vary. Said phase of matter will be decided by how much energy the material currently possesses. While there is more energy present in a substance it's various 'trons and quarks will be spread fairly thin in it and they'll be moving about quite a bit. Now as the material loses energy those various particles begin to slow down and get closer together. Most people have probably realized by now what I'm going on about, but for the benefit of the few who might not. As Kiyoshi drains the kinetic energy from an area it would begins to lose the main manifestation of that energy in an enviroment that is otherwise stationary.

Heat.

The really confusing part about what to make of thit is even ice has a decent amount of kinetic energy just from the meager movement of its subatomic structure. So what the hell happens to something when you drain away almost all of its kinetic energy?