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Shadow Manipulation, Flight , Size Manipulation, Rapid Cell Regeneration, Space-Time Manipulation, Electric Manipulation ,Telekensis, Induced Radioactivity, Telepathy, Cloning, Power Bestowal, and Power Amplification/ Energy Manipulation

OK, first note: This is not personal.

Shadow manipulation, electric manipulation, and induced radioactivity can all fall under the category of power amplification/energy manipulation. So make that 9 powers. Unless he grows wings, flight is too, and under most normal circumstances so are size manipulation and rapid cell regeneration. So make that 6 powers. Telekinesis and telepathy are most likely done with energy manipulation (redirection counts as manipulation) so make that 4 powers. Cloning would definitely require energy manipulation, as would power bestowal (unless this RP uses some sort of weird magic system) so make that 2 powers. On top of that, power amplification/energy manipulation is practically the same thing as space-time manipulation, so make that 1 power.

HOWEVER, space-time manipulation means that the character can do anything he wants. Which is totally a Mary Sue.

And what happened to that giant list that Skallagrim quoted? Still, all of those would fall under the hood of space-time manipulation.

Although, if being an empath means he can copy others' abilities and add them to his reservoir of abilities, then he's got a good enough reason for having his character be that powerful. Although...that's not good enough justification for being allowed a character like that in an RP. Still, for better judgment I'd have to see the rest of the characters.

Lol, DCXLVI. How am I not surprised that you stepped in to defend the percieved lone fighter? BTW, that's meant in the nicest way, with no snarky connotations underlying it or the like. It just seemed classical you to say something for the underdog/ dude getting bashed on.

Um, I think that DC's argument was that if one were to actually apply science to the fantasy/sci-fi aspect of the dude's abilities, they could arguanly be categorized under one dominion, space/time manipulation aside, and that in that regard, Peter's twelve powers are merely subsets of a greater whole. With her logic, you'd have been able to have off a point or two on a Mary Sue litmus test.

I think you guys are missing the point... an overpowered character is not a Mary-Sue for being overpowered. For lack of a better in-your-face explanation, here is the wiki definition (for a third time):

Wikipedia wrote:A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

My apologies to you Chulance, but if we were to class your character Peter as a Mary-Sue it would NOT be because of his powers, but rather because of your insistence that he is not a Mary-Sue coupled with others' apparent dislike for him. He lacks noteworthy flaws because, despite currently being underpowered, he appears to always be powerful enough when he needs to defeat a villain, such as Zod.

I know I might be getting a bit off topic, so the point of this topic shouldn't really be to accuse anyone of Mary Sues, or even to absolve yourself of ever Mary Sueing. Everyone makes Mary Sue characters, because it's hard not to love a really good character that you make. The point is that when you make that really good character, you have to let them be them and stay consistent with their personality (even if their personality is to be inconsistent in their decisions).

It's a semantic differentiation - Mary Sue vs overpowered, but when the wiki definition has been laid out, it's only polite to acknowledge it =/

Tis all true; my statement was biased in the sense that only a test-based approach was taken into consideration. On a lighter note, all ye who have Sued, raise thy hand! *raises hand*

Excellent. Now, just to have a little fun poking at our misshappen, lovely beauties, let us compare our Sues-- shall we? I'm just curious; it has a trading card sort of aspect in my mind.

Well, here are my first two:

Sorea Pardai-- A faery telepath and soul-mage (now dead at the hands of Astrophel), as well as assassin-turned-gov't-spy-turned-military-commander (the latter after a flurry of promotions) who at the tender age of twelve ended up splitting her soul into two to give the second half to her friend so that his life might be saved, the then-seventeen...

Signum Vulnus-- Also faery, he's a wicked good healer whose mastery of the art has led him to.. you've got it... be self-healing! Ta-daaaa! Need it be mentioned that as a poison-mage who refuses to use that magic for anything other than healing, the chances of bumping off this guy with anything save for old age or Melchios (more on him later) are incredibly low?*




*Until magic is taken into account. Telepaths/soul-mages/a fire mage with a fair bit of patience stand a chance. Good lord, he was a terrible idea. Saddest part is that he's still active in the thread...

Alacer Phasmatis wrote:Lol, DCXLVI. How am I not surprised that you stepped in to defend the percieved lone fighter? BTW, that's meant in the nicest way, with no snarky connotations underlying it or the like. It just seemed classical you to say something for the underdog/ dude getting bashed on.

Actually, I just came in because I thought he didn't have his argument straight. As it turns out, he just hasn't thought of all the possibilities he could gain by being able to manipulate any kind of matter or energy, and time.

Meh one of my first characters was a drow assassin/death knight. Talk about a mary sue!!! Gawd it was horrible, I was out of control during those early days. I didn't know what the hell I was doing and it showed.

Now that I am older I tailor characters to the role-plays I join, but I have to really like the story and the other players or I won't join. Dynamic, flawed and all to human characters with fears and desires are what I like to run now, no matter the genre.

I'm not sure I've ever created a Mary-Sue. All of the characters I've made have had some kind of emotional/physical/mental hindrance on whatever power they possessed.

I've not encountered a Mary-Sue character, either, just a massive amount of Mary-Sue writers. I've found that any character has at least one weakness, it's simply up to the writer to allow those events to transpire.

I don't have much of a problem with it, though. Normally I'll PM the person and try to guide them in the right direction, as they tend to be newcomers to the roleplaying scene.

The Mary Sues and Gary Stues I've encountered are generally the stealth-types... They don't blow up worlds, but they're just powerful enough that everything you throw at them is a liiiiiiitle too weak to actually hurt them. There are also those who throw out a lot of reason as to why their character has the right to be nigh-invulnerable (or in many cases actually invulnerable), all of which boils down to "Yes, but your characters is just plain bad."

Also, the characters that totally don't fit with the rest of the gaming group. For example, in a universe of anthro animals, you're the sole human ever who also is psychic and the best assassin and pilot so that even the canon badasses bow before you? Wow, that's a combo-Sue/Stu right there. This also includes normal high-school students who can somehow fight trained soldiers to a standstill without any justification besides "He's on the karate team."

More than MS/GS types, I tend to encounter meta-gamers who use OOC information to advance their characters, and people who give their characters triple-digit IQs to justify using out-of-game knowledge. Look, unless you're goddamn Deadpool your character does NOT break the fourth wall!

*sigh* Well, I think we've all made Mary Sues or Gary Stus in our time, whether or not we realize it; what looks to us like a well-rounded character can appear to others as angsty Cursed-With-Awesome types. And y'know, as long as you grow out of that, it's okay. I just think it's more fun to play a limited character who interacts with others, rather than someone who spends all their time being all-powerful and/or a stereotype.

I was watchin 'angels & demons' last night, and i realised "HOLY CRAP. TOM CRUISE IS PLAYING A GARY-STU". its weird, the character always has the answers to everything, he always seems to have this knowledge that no other characters have, and he's a prick. But that might just be Tom Hanks bleeding through into the character.

I think there's a lot more to mary-sueing than just overpowered or even out-of-place characters. Even in my early RP days when I was too dumb to understand why godmodding was bad, I never made a mary-sue RP character, as I see it. I just couldn't play them - even behind the mask of a character I was still too shy to even attempt making a character with the kind of personality I idealized, so even when I made overpowered characters I was painfully aware they shared many of my own flaws. By the time I was confident enough, I was also wise enough to know I could have more fun with a balanced character.

Or so I thought. When I started writing an ongoing novel for practice and as a kind of extended daydream, the two main characters (though I didn't realise it at the time) were ostentatiously sue. I'd originally intended them to be powerful and compelling, the gifted minority in a world of fantastic people, wise in their own way, but still young, ignorant, and coping with emotional deficiencies. But somehow, as I kept writing, they continued to overcome everything I threw at them with luck, smug panache and inappropriate adulation by the other characters that eventually ruined the whole purpose of the story and undermined my efforts to actually display the traits I was trying to establish. 'Next time,' I told myself, 'they will screw up. Character A will make a gamble that fails, or someone will get sick of his attitude, or B will suffer the consequences of his careless antics. But this time, it would be so much better if...'
Eventually I caught on to this, partly thanks to a bit of helpful external criticism, and went back over what I'd written with more of a critical eye.
Near the start, the protagonists had run into a racist drunkard, and, naturally, kicked his ass in short order. After all, he was drunk, and one of the pair was a skilled fighter. But I went over it again, and this time, made the drunk a war veteran. Why was he racist? He'd served in a particularly nasty border dispute and witnessed a lot of brutality.
Doing a second take, then, the fight starts as usual, but the protagonists quickly find themselves out of their depth. A's temper almost costs him his life, and B has to drop his carefree manner to save him. As an added bonus I get an extended and far more brutal combat sequence, and a subsequent 'recovery' scene that really helped the character development between the two. The next morning, the vet's sobered up and can't apologise enough. Suddenly, charging in like an asshole doesn't seem like such cool thing to do.
All in all, this adjustment allowed me to paint a darker, more neurotic, even pathetic side to A's attitude, hopefully making him a more sympathetic character, while still allowing me to keep the admirable traits that made him a suitable protagonist. It also added a bit of depth to B.

I guess the point of this self-indulgent rambling was that all you have to do to make a sue is to overlook opportunities to cut your characters down a notch, and all you have to do to fix it is bracket your prejudices and look a bit harder. The callous gaze of the Other is your friend.

GhaKha's point is pretty interesting too though - maybe it's just me, but it seems like Hollywood (and the popular fiction market in general) have been taking even more indulgent liberties recently with what I in my elitism see as 'bad writing practices', Dan Brown's work and Twilight being the most notable examples though also things like (please don't flame me), Harry Potter, though admittedly that has a lot of value in it too. I mean sure, explosions, hot women and shallow, larger-than-life characters are all par for the course, but Mary Sues are just one of a slew of worrying trends towards masturbatory self-indulgence both on the part of the author and their fanbase. I can't really condemn it without being an asshole, because a lot of people like that sort of thing, but I can't help but feel it betrays a lack of entirely appropriate shame.

As the Inerio said, lets try to avoid stepping on some feet. Whether or not you believe someone has a Mary Sue here or not.

***

I tend to look at things now with Fantasy Realism. It is a made up word that me and some others use going as a type of fantasy genre. If fantasy elements existed, they would exist with the same laws and principle that our world has. (Therodynamics, physics, etc.) I have majorly rolled my eyes to the spiky haired kids with huge swords and guns.

In many cases that I have looked around on the site, you can quickly see what are remarked as Mary Sue characteristics. We have all done it before, its nothing to get flustered about. It shows up in modern day and medieval. I'll just list a few:

.50 cal anything. (Usually sniper rifle.) - Many people tend to merely say a sniper rifle and strength instead of actually looking up a real weapon.
Katana - Cause everyone wants a sword that you could lose your fingers with. Plus Japanese!
Desert Eagles (Usually .50 cal and dual-wielded) - Cause they are shiny and impractical. Plus they showed up in many games.
Asian Character Names - Normally Japanese and almost never actually look Asian.
The Hybrid - Vampire angels, demon angels, vampire werewolves... just these already gives the eye roll.
The huge list of special powers - That almost never have a correlation with any of the near powers. (I can make metal melt and trees grow!... Huh?)
Ultimate Special Powers - No weakness and/or have some way to battle every situation ever. Usually has a few other powers for good measure.
Ninjas - Cause everyone wants to be a ninja... with katanas! (The samurais' weapon.) At least a Japanese name makes sense here.
Impractical Weapons - Weapons that are too big, just look cool, or unusual. A good way to tell is if the weapon picture is being linked.
Really Smart - Cause everyone wants to be! Too bad most of the people trying to roleplay a smart character generally aren't.

I could go on forever. xD They make our eyes roll and make us rub our temples in frustration. The dreaded Sue! Oh, please do note that min/max is still type of Mary Sue. I have 15 strengths and 22 weaknesses, not Mary Sue right? No, I probably still am.

In literature other media, we see Mary Sues all the time. Bleach's Ichigo (the main character) is a huge Mary Sue, people actually use him as a famous anime example. Twilight is chalked full with Mary Sue slobbing, each one taking a different form of Mary Sue persona. (The lover vampire can read minds, sparkle, be Superman, take a tank shell to the face, and visit Mars! Sorry, might of spoiled the ending. xD )

This test works well, always judge mean to your character and usually 20 or higher needs a little work: http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm

But there is my second rant, stay tuned when I go for my next one! ^^

If that aint the truth!

I don't mind stagnent characters who remain the same throughout a story, but in my experience, people who have an MS/GS try to godmode the whole story. It's as though the RP is supposed to entirely revolve around their character! It's so frustrating because you just want to kick the person out but they never leave. It's an inconvenience for everyone.

hey chulance what about cabbon i think anybody would consider that a mary sue

Well looking at a lot of the responses it seems we all agree that much of the Mary sue-ish behavior we have done or experienced comes from really just a lack of understanding how collaborative writing works.

col·lab·o·rate (kə-lāb'ə-rāt')
intr.v. col·lab·o·rat·ed, col·lab·o·rat·ing, col·lab·o·rates
1. To work together, especially in a joint intellectual effort.

I think a lot of the behavior that prompts a writer to be mary sue, to be that dominating presence, the one to control the whole story is just a lack of understanding how this form of writing actually works. We as role-players and writers have come together to make a story, a story we all have a stake in creating.

However when one writer displays mary sue tendencies it ruins the whole process of dynamic writing for the rest of us. Often the mary sue writer is new to the concept of collaborative writing and tends to want to write their vision which more often than not is not a shared vision with the other writers.

New writers often don't see their actions harm the overall story that is being created because they are so focused on what they want, they forget everyone involved has a say in the story as well. Which is why, and I hate to say it, I tend to not role-play with new people. I prefer to role-play with those who are skilled at creating vivid images and compelling characters that fit in the storyline. I know it sounds elitist and it is. But I prefer to write, create and build great stories that are exciting for me to write and exciting for me to read the actions of the others involved, so I tend to stick to those I know can do what I seek in a writer.

Anyway off my soap box.

... dude... you frikin where more powerful than anybody besides mozenrath pretty much, you auto hit my character all the time, everytime i got close to you you always froze time and did some devestating move, you turned him good when he was ment to be evil the whole rp, and you destroyed alot of his body thats all the reason's i killed him because he was nothing like what i wanted anymore because you completly changed him