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Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

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Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Inerio on Tue May 19, 2009 8:00 pm

We all know of this creature. He/she lurks in our roleplay forums. It skulks about in fanfictions. While we often opt to click out of the window and disregard their existance, they're all too real.....Well, as far as fiction goes anyway.

That's right people, I'm talking about the dreaded Mary-sue/Gary-stu. The all too perfect character. The opposite gender? Can't get enough of em! They're loved by all, and you should be expected to love them too. God forbid one takes distaste in such a character, for this will result in being crushed by their god-like powers or them crying in teen wangst.

While they can't ruin an entire fandom(though, this theory has yet to be proved completely implausible) they sure can ruin a good roleplay. While it's not often that a good GM lets one in, every now and then they'll get past the radar.

So, what are your view and experiences with these dreaded creatures?

For those of you who still don't get it, see this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_sue
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Ylanne on Tue May 19, 2009 8:22 pm

I dread the Mary Sue! To me, as an experienced writer and editor, I cringe, because I don't want the unpleasant task of telling someone "Get a reality check. Now." Because sometimes, a Mary Sue character really can be an idealistic escape for the writer, but unfortunately, the MS becomes a huge problem when let out of a closet, so to speak.

Actually, I will be the first to admit I've had Mary Sue characters before. Several of them in fact. It was only in the last few years of my life/career/life that I realized this and began to develop realistic, believable characters. Now whether any given reader or fellow roleplayer will relate to one or another is another question altogether, and totally out of my hands, but I spent hours creating characters who mirror life = characters who seem real, no matter how lovable or hate-able they are.

I have seen many roleplays on here where people posted characters that to me were clearly Mary Sues or showed many symptoms of it. My method of dealing? When I request a one on one or start a group roleplay (all of which seem to die of course), I always specifically state that the roleplayers wishing to join must have "well-developed dynamic characters" that do not "fit into any stereotype or established archetype". i.e. Avoid the messed up childhood killer, the lone wolf detective, the rebellious teenage girl, etc. You know who I mean.

Those are just my thoughts.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby DCLXVI on Tue May 19, 2009 8:34 pm

I've found that most communities I discuss fiction with have an interesting way of looking at stereotypes and cliches. They demand "believable" characters, then most combinations of character traits. A need for individuality can result in Mary Sue traits. A character who's likable and charismatic can result in Mary Sue traits. A character who isn't likable and charismatic can result in a Mary Sue. Lots of people whose characters I've seen termed Mary Sues seemed OK to me, just not played by a writer good enough to get published. Poor characters, I find, are more due to poor writing ability than an actually unbelievable character. The character is sound, but they're played in a lousy way. (Also, I noticed that Wikipedia cites several things as Mary Sueish, that I'd only call so when used out of context. If you're doing a Sci-Fi RP with people from across the galaxy, weird names, pets, and hair colors wouldn't be Mary Sueish, but expected.)

To avoid this, I tend to base characters on people I know, or conglomerations thereof. Because if it occurs in real life, I can't be accused of being unrealistic. (Right?) Of course, I probably make my share of Mary Sues and don't notice it...I only catch really glaring ones anyway. (And I tend to take "Mary Sue" as a great insult, which is somewhat bad on my part.)

The one thing that kills me is the all-powerful character. Especially when it's the GM, and they say nobody else can have characters that powerful.

EDIT: Also, I fail at not making cliche and stereotyped characters because I don't actually know many of those. I'll make a character I've never seen before and people'll say "That's just like so-and-so from such-and-such book you've never heard of and a million other characters!"
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alacer Phasmatis on Tue May 19, 2009 9:09 pm

Hmm, Mary Sues. It's a painful truth that my characters chronicly suffer of this syndrome (one needs only look at the mentally unstable Morteza Melchios [Freedom Forsaken, debut on pg. 5, if you really did go look] for evidence. Of course, the crazy healing abilities of Signum make for close competition). I think that a certain aspect of this unfortunate tendency in RPGs is that its a group activity, and erstwhile writers who could churn out excellent, well-rounded histories on their lonesome are sudenly compelled to make a character that is compatible with a covey of fellow interative.There's so little room for a main character, out of six/seven/how-ever-many-involved potentials, that the general set of players become more powerful as a result.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Ponats on Wed May 20, 2009 8:36 am

Ah, the Mary Sue. Used often in early writing from people and also the name quickly thrown out on a whim.

I have had a Mary Sue character and admittedly I have gone there. The thrill of having some crazy cool character... which probably made some eyes roll. (Other than the GM who was giving it to me. xD ) Now that I have seen the light, I have avoided the Mary Sue hits.

But a misconception of the Mary Sue is that many people will quickly throw a bat at someone as a Mary Sue just because they are powerful. (Uber Sue) But that is not always the case. I'll give a little example:

    A solider from modern fighting against other modern soldiers would be normal. A modern day soldier fighting in World War 2 would be a Mary Sue. (Unless all his modern day equipment was gone or he was given bare bone.)

It is the out of placement, not necessarily the power. Spiky haired kids with huge swords are not Mary Sues when they are surrounded by other spiky haired kids. Mary Sue is just someone out of place with the rest.

I have had plenty of Mary Sue'ing thrown at me before. I normally smack it down and give alternatives. Cause really a Mary Sue ruins the fun.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 11:19 am

I don't think there are Mary Sue's I know some people who nothing bad has ever happanned to them and they have everything going good. There real people so they can't be mary sue's. There REAL people it's possible for people to have perfect lives especially famous people's kids most turn out to be spoiled brats.

I've taken Mary Sue tests dosen't mean my character is a mary sue as long as there in their enviorment. One of my character's Teon scorred really high but than he's not a Mary Sue in his OWN rp and fits in perfectly. He has world destroying abilties and others do as well but on the average mary sue test he would score a mary sue. If he was in a gangster rp where everyone was normal and he had world destroying powers he would be a Mary Sue.


As for my experience with Mary Sue's I've never encountered one.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skallagrim on Wed May 20, 2009 11:59 am

From Wiki a definition-

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

"Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Marty Stu", "Gary Stu", or similar names.[1] While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such.

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues," if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways.

See these are not real people. They are fictional characters who are over the top characters with little or no flaws. Able to do anything and everything and tend to want to dominate a role-play or fight in the arena through ridiculous amounts of powers, abilities or skills.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 12:18 pm

Ah, I see what your saying. Fictional character who are over the top with very few flaws and able to do anyhing and everyone. I've never once encoutnered or made a character with ridoclous amounts of powers,abilties, or skills to my knowlege.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skallagrim on Wed May 20, 2009 12:20 pm

You're kidding right?

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 12:30 pm

No, I'm not kidding why would you say that Skallagrim? If I've made a mary Sue it must have been long ago.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alucroas on Wed May 20, 2009 12:43 pm

We all know, you've made a Mary Sue character chulance, because we're fighting him right now. I'm not so sure as to whether or not I would call The Plasmolysist a Mary Sue, simply because of the way its played, coupled with the fact that I do in all seriousness try to throw some spins on how it operates.

But, yes chulance it IS a Mary Sue; no doubt about it. Don't you dare try to deny it, because I will HURT you if you do.
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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skallagrim on Wed May 20, 2009 12:49 pm

This is a mary-sue Chulance:

Um, no Skallagrim. I just added some rules. Sure Souloue any number of fighters is welcome. I usually allow any power in my fights so long as it's not I look at you and you die.

Here's the profile for Peter. I'm going to use him instead.

Name: Peter Petrelli
Powers: He is an empathic which allows him to copy the powers of other evolved humans. He has copied Precognative dreaming,Flight, Precognition, Space Time Manipulation, Rapid Cell Regeneration, Telepathy, Invisbility, Telekenesis, Induced radioactvity, Enhanced Strength, Phasing, Electric Manipulation, Pryokinesis, Intuitive aptitude, Super Speed, Healing, Power Absorbtion, Persuasion, Enhanced Memory, Freezing, Shattering(Trevor's ability), Mental Manipulation, Enhanced hearing, Melting,Clairvoyance,Technopathy,Alchemy, Sound Manipulation,Clairsentience, Teleportation, Shadow manipulation, Water Mimmicry, Metal Mimmicry,Size Manipulation, Ability Supercharging, Matter Ingestion, Power Bestowal, Matter Manipulation, Heat Vision, Impenetrable skin, Reality warping, Energy manipulation and Matter Absorbtion. He also has kryptonion abilties, wields Milton Fine's shapeshifting,mineral absorbtion, superhuman intelligence,cloning,Biological manipulation, and Information Absorbtion. He has Davis's self evolution, Regeneration,Ressuerction, super stamina and Reactive Adaption.

Personality: He seems to have a savoir complex always wanting to save people and blaming himself when his friends are in danger. He always wants to help people and is a generally cheerful guy save when he’s fighting evil. Although he will now sometimes make jokes when in danger to try and make his friends less fearful ect.


Aside from all the other powers you have, how did you gain superman's powers? Kryptonian abilities? Really? You copied superman?

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 12:55 pm

Oh Peter? Ah him he's just powerful he's not a mary sue he's just really powerful. What about the Collective? A planet sized vessel? Peter started off not so powerful your fighting Peter in his prime right now he has Ability Replication he can replicate the powers of person at a time right know he's immortal and can heal from anything.

Anyway yeah soon he'll be powerless. Anyway Skallagrim ah why pull out that weak version of Peter? He's gotten much stronger since than. Now he's had a power-down but still strong. Yes infact Peter did see they encoutnered this guy named Amahon who was more powerful than Peter and he sent them into comics to get rid of him since he didn't want to fight him one on one. He was in the time Doomsday was loose so he would have to face Doomsday he met him and he helped Superman defeat Doomsday copied both of their powers later they were rescued and he used his new powers to stop Amahon and Brainiac with help from friends.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skallagrim on Wed May 20, 2009 1:08 pm

chulance wrote:Oh Peter? Ah him he's just powerful he's not a mary sue he's just really powerful. What about the Collective? A planet sized vessel? Peter started off not so powerful your fighting Peter in his prime right now he has Ability Replication he can replicate the powers of person at a time right know he's immortal and can heal from anything.

Anyway yeah soon he'll be powerless. Anyway Skallagrim ah why pull out that weak version of Peter? He's gotten much stronger since than. Now he's had a power-down but still strong. Yes infact Peter did see they encoutnered this guy named Amahon who was more powerful than Peter and he sent them into comics to get rid of him since he didn't want to fight him one on one. He was in the time Doomsday was loose so he would have to face Doomsday he met him and he helped Superman defeat Doomsday copied both of their powers later they were rescued and he used his new powers to stop Amahon and Brainiac with help from friends.


Everything you said is what was outlined as mary-sueish:

A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in literary criticism and particularly in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as wish-fulfillment fantasies for their authors or readers. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".

"Mary Sues" can be either male or female, but male characters are often dubbed "Marty Stu", "Gary Stu", or similar names.[1] While the label "Mary Sue" itself originates from a parody of this type of character, most characters labeled "Mary Sues" by readers are not intended by authors as such.

While the term is generally limited to fan-created characters, and its most common usage today occurs within the fan fiction community or in reference to fan fiction, original characters in role-playing games or literary canon are also sometimes criticized as being "Mary Sues" or "canon Sues," if they dominate the spotlight or are too unrealistic or unlikely in other ways.


Being immortal and can heal from anything is mary-sue. Going into a comic book to get powers from superman is mary-sue. I mean Chulance from what I have seen you're a decent, if overly dominant role-player, but you do make mary-sue characters. I figure like everyone who makes mary-sue characters, you'll grow out of it in a year or so and start to make more balanced and challenging characters for yourself and for the role-plays you participate in. Which just means you are growing as a role-player.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alias on Wed May 20, 2009 1:12 pm

I like that you made a wiki run Skallagrim. Mary-Sue characters aren't just out of place - they are flat, powerful, static, and unnatural. Not to mention unrealistic (or alternatively, boring). They are ones with clearly defined strengths and weaknesses, often times with troubled childhoods, and are now self proclaimed and universally accepted heroes because they happened to be "chosen" via one mechanism or another. Their ability to slay monsters and enemies supersedes the bounds of reality, and their intelligence and meta-thinking allow them to gain an advantage even when they should be at a disadvantage.

But Mary-Sue characters aren't just their own problem - their authors are the ones that have work cut out for them. It is the author that makes the decision to have a Mary-Sue figure out that complex puzzle or the opponent's intentions, and thus the author that has the Mary-Sue act accordingly to avoid an elaborate trap or counter the opponent's strike. The authors of Mary-Sue characters often metagame (incorrectly) without regard for their fellow players, seeking an egotistical success of their character, rather than the literary success of the roleplay in whole.

Just as wikipedia proposes that Mary-Sue characters are used as wish-fulfillment fantasies, I agree and insist that authors who create Mary-Sues simply have not detached their own psyches from those of their characters. Thus an author limits the range of personalities that their character may exhibit to only that range of personalities that the author wishes (s)he exhibited in that situation. As a result, the author will often idealize the actions and responses and personality of their character (not necessarily to be the "best", but simply to some extreme), truly defining them as a Mary-Sue.

Good discussion. It'll certainly make me think twice the next time I create a character or even pick up an old one, to make sure I haven't made a Mary-Sue.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 1:22 pm

Did you read the part about how he can only replicate the powers of ONE person at a time right know so he's being powered down. Yes you may say he's a mary sue but soon he'll have no powers at all. Well yeah but he needed to stop Zod and Brainaic so he bored powers from them Superman, and Doomsday to save the world. He's one of Superman's best friends know and Peter is my strongest person dude. Most of my guys aren't mary sue in their rp like Teon can easily blow up the earth and move at a quarter of the speed of light he's not a mary sue in his own universe. I don't think current Peter is a mary sue since he's just immortal, than he'll change to flight, than powerless.


Well know Peter has 12 powers and is not just immortal anymore.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Inerio on Wed May 20, 2009 1:36 pm

I posted this so that we could all have a chat about our sue experiences.
If any toes are stepped on in the process I'd like that skirmish to please be taken to PMs instead of being posted on this forum. The same goes for the deliberate stepping on toes.

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Chulance on Wed May 20, 2009 1:46 pm

Anyway Peter isn't the strongest in his own universe Arthur, and Alice can beat him.He's equal to Magix there both the third strongest in their universe. Soon Magix will be 2nd strongest under Alice and Peter and Arthur will be weaklings. Peter still has military training and medical skills to survive. He also knows the weaknesses of many people so he'll be fine and I don't get mad when people say my guy's are mary sue's if they say why they think they are.

Peter only has 12 powers Shadow Manipulation, Flight , Size Manipulation, Rapid Cell Regeneration, Space-Time Manipulation, Electric Manipulation ,Telekensis, Induced Radioactivity, Telepathy, Cloning, Power Bestowal, and Power Amplification/ Energy Manipulation. So he's not too strong right Skall?

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alacer Phasmatis on Wed May 20, 2009 3:53 pm

Nevah mind. I didn't Sue as much as some parties seem to have (although I did commit a few felonies).

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Re: Mary-Sue/Gary-Stu

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Safisan on Wed May 20, 2009 4:28 pm

I'll try and ignore the toe-stepping (because I've reason to involve in it and simply can't afford the time) and keep this short and sweet. Yes, I have seen/made Sues, a two-souled vampire with no vampire weaknesses and somewhat subpar powers (I made much emphasis in speed, agility and stamina being above par however) was my very first serious character, never did get to play it, thank God.

To me, a Sue can be just an overly powerful charcter as opposed to one that's out of place because of it, because at some point, your capacities as a writer will give in to having such an imbalance in comparison to what you can perceive in your usual environment. If you're not an avid anime fan, you may find your anime roleplay character blowing up planets left and right with no consideration for the other players, whereas somebody who's picked up on the subject may know it's common for a match to go along the lines of:

- Ow! No, I'm bleeding to death-- awesome power thingy that heals and has more power than the solar system!

- Ah crap. But I have a backup plan! *Bigger power up*

- Not like my own though! *Yet another power increase*

...And so on. Sure, there's an annoying roleplay-dick-measuring contest, but the fight flows somewhat smoothly because they're aware of how to roleplay that to a reasonable extent.

Tl;dr: powerful characters are okay if they're both in their right place and in a wised up player's hands. Completely out of place characters aren't okay, anywhere.

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