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Facebook · by **Syren Song** on Sat Sep 13, 2008 8:41 pm

The Rogue Doll wrote:
Syren Song wrote:The Rogue Doll -- If you hover over the stars when wanting to rate a post, it should provide words that describe the star's rank. From worst to best:
"Meh."
"Okay."
"Average."
"Good."
"Epic."

Thank you. That confirms my suspicion that I have been rating everyone opposite of what I wanted to....

Oh well. I'll make up for it with utter correctness now.

Glad I could help clear that up for you. ^^ Ah, hehe, and sorry to hear that you were doing it backwards!

The Rogue Doll wrote:I also have to say that if your self esteem is so connected with the little stars under your name already, you have more problems to deal with than your role playing skills.

It is just a tool. It can be helpful for some, and not helpful for others. It's just like criticism in general, really. Some people can't take it, some people can. Some people give it unjustly, and some people do it thoughtfully. It is, regardless of all of these factors, necessary for learning.
Again, perhaps uneducated question, but are you able to see your ratings for a particular post? That way you can identify what people are criticizing and you can asses whether it is just to you or not? NVM

I definitely agree. While you may be a dedicated fan of these forums (which is great), you shouldn't worry yourself too much over this. Try to see it for what it is - a better, more accurate rating system. It's there to be used for your own personal advantage, not as a tool against you or anyone else personally. If one of your posts isn't rated very well, try not to take offense to it, but rather try to see how you could have improved. Did you not include enough detail? Was your post offensive or immature in some way? Were you simply arguing your point and someone didn't agree with it? Sometimes, a bad rating may not even be your fault, in which case, just let it go. Like The Rogue Doll said, don't take it so seriously. Remæus' intention, after all, is only to better this message board by including a newer and more helpful feature for our own benefit and convenience.

Colossal Hound wrote:I belive it to be a good representation of people's RP skills though i disagree with posting frequency because some people have lives.

Oh, without a doubt. It's unfair, in my opinion, that below average role players who insist on posting one-liners should get a higher reputation rating simply because they post more, rather than others who put time and effort and a great deal more thought into their posts. This method is far more effective for singling out things like that.

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Top · by **ThatsNotPoetry** on Sat Sep 13, 2008 10:35 pm

Okay. Here. I didn't want to turn this into a "well what about me!?" argument, but I really do have some prime examples, Remæus. Since you used another member's below-par posting as an example of why he may receive low ranks (and went so far as to include a link), I am going to do the same for myself.

These are posts taken from different threads over different time spans. These are how my posts (be they IC or OOC) tend to pan out. They are fully fleshed. In OOC, they are quite premeditated and explain a good deal. In IC, they are extremely narrative and plotted. No, this isn't an attempt to toot my own horn. This is an example of a good RPer and a good conversationalist who is stuck with a mediocre RP and Reputation score because of an unreliable system. Please, just take a look. I am only looking to prove my point with examples, regardless of the subject matter contained in each post (that being the other issue: people are going to grade based on their opinions. That's the human way. A reliable, trustworthy voter may eventually vote unfairly--in fact, very likely will at one point or another.)

IC Post 1
OOC post giving artistic advice
OOC post about politics
IC Post 2
More artistic advice
And more art advice
Art Post

(If you think I am lame for posting these links, simply don't click. :\ That last link is specifically an example of how ranking can be abused regardless of quality of content.)

So tell me. Why is it that I have a mediocre "RP rank" when there are tons of folks here who exhibit an extremely poor level of craftsmanship in their regular posting and yet continue to have equal or higher "ranks" than others who put far more effort into their community interactions? And I still stand by the statement that auto-ranking an otherwise unranked post is also not right.

I don't come here to get scored. I come here to play. When I know the people who read my stuff find it unworthy of good "stars," it's quite discouraging. Explaining to me how this isn't an issue simply isn't working, because I am witnessing right now how it is an issue.

Of course, all I need is a "regardless of what you think of it, it's staying and that's that," and I'll shut up xD I'm not saying I am pissed with my rank and want the stars I deserve. I'm just trying to provide a bit of proof as to how it can be considered extremely unfair--and how it is going to deter people from their efforts. I suppose what I am hoping for is for you to say "okay yes, that's an unavoidable pitfall in the system and it is unfair, but not everything can be perfect and it is meant to to do more good than harm." I may not get that admittance, I understand. Just explaining myself. I am also hoping that the current unfairness in general RP ranks will begin to level out as more scores are placed.

If the rank-via-post-count wasn't working, why not just be rid of the rank mess entirely? If you're not a mod or an admin or a veteran or whatever other color-coded ranks that exist, why can't we just be "members"? Why do I have to be graded?

**Edit**
Adding a link in that list to a piece of art that for some reason received a single star ranking. You know. Because that's fair and has been properly calculated. Point being, there's too many openings for bitterness and/or favoritism.

Top · by **Syren Song** on Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:30 pm

After personally reading your posts, That's Not Poetry, I have to say, I can completely see where you're coming from. To me, it seems both your well thought out advice and equally deserving role play posts did not receive the, what one could only assume to be, appropriate ratings. Perhaps the people who you were providing the advice to were unprepared to receive your criticism, and thus did not choose to rate it. As for your role play posts - I cannot see how the others involved could not have given you something a bit higher. Not only are they of wonderful length, but your writing talent and grammar alone are well warrant to a good 5 stars, in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry that this system isn't working for some people. I realized, in addition to the problem with honesty, there could also be another flaw with friends giving friends high ratings, regardless of content.

Top · by **St.Jimmy** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 9:09 am

I'm confused. I created an RP today, and I thought that there was a voting period for each and every post that you make. However, all my posts in that RP have already been rated two stars. I have no idea who did this, or why - it was my own RP and all I'd written were character skeletons, which were very detailed, and the introduction to the RP, which was clear and detailed. However, despite the fact that these ratings were only made today, it's already knocked my star rating down by 0.1.

I'm afraid I dislike this system. I don't know if others have had dissimilar experiences, but to me it seems to be a little unfair. Despite the fact that my posts are almost always over 75 words, I cannot seem to get beyond 2 stars. I believe I have a good grasp of spelling and grammar. I'm on this site a fair amount of time and I'm a dedicated writer. I don't understand why I can't seem to advance beyond the 2 star rating, especially as not many of my posts have actually been rated. Shouldn't the mandatory 3 star rating for unrated posts actually drag this up rather than keep it the same?

I'd appreciate some explanation. Thank you!

Top · by **ThatsNotPoetry** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:16 am

Syren Song wrote:After personally reading your posts, That's Not Poetry, I have to say, I can completely see where you're coming from. To me, it seems both your well thought out advice and equally deserving role play posts did not receive the, what one could only assume to be, appropriate ratings. Perhaps the people who you were providing the advice to were unprepared to receive your criticism, and thus did not choose to rate it. As for your role play posts - I cannot see how the others involved could not have given you something a bit higher. Not only are they of wonderful length, but your writing talent and grammar alone are well warrant to a good 5 stars, in my humble opinion.

I'm sorry that this system isn't working for some people. I realized, in addition to the problem with honesty, there could also be another flaw with friends giving friends high ratings, regardless of content.

Fascinating how a simple post about seeing the issue from multiple perspectives was landed a 2 star rating. Perhaps because often people will naturally rate a post based on their opinion of what is being said, rather than how it is said or the effort put into the words. Again, exactly why I don't like the idea of my "RP reputation" being left at the hands of the judgmental (or left up to "automatic three star rates.")

St.Jimmy wrote:I'm confused. I created an RP today, and I thought that there was a voting period for each and every post that you make. However, all my posts in that RP have already been rated two stars. I have no idea who did this, or why - it was my own RP and all I'd written were character skeletons, which were very detailed, and the introduction to the RP, which was clear and detailed. However, despite the fact that these ratings were only made today, it's already knocked my star rating down by 0.1.

I'm afraid I dislike this system. I don't know if others have had dissimilar experiences, but to me it seems to be a little unfair. Despite the fact that my posts are almost always over 75 words, I cannot seem to get beyond 2 stars. I believe I have a good grasp of spelling and grammar. I'm on this site a fair amount of time and I'm a dedicated writer. I don't understand why I can't seem to advance beyond the 2 star rating, especially as not many of my posts have actually been rated. Shouldn't the mandatory 3 star rating for unrated posts actually drag this up rather than keep it the same?

I'd appreciate some explanation. Thank you!

To be fair, a 75 word count may not be something that people find very impressive. However, from what I've read, the content itself is satisfactory enough. Having the worth of your posts left up to the opinions of people you don't even know seems like an unreliable system.

______________________________________________________

Notice how nobody had any complaints about how their RP was interpreted or how their RP was judged, until now. There wasn't a problem until people were being forced to see that their reputation is being decided by people with zero credentials in judging anyone here--let alone the ability to judge fairly. In fact, even from the most basic of standpoints, there are people in their 20's and 30's having their writing skill judged by 13 - 15 year olds. Considering there are far more "young people" here than otherwise, that will be the norm. I'm not saying kids haven't the ability to properly digest good RP. I'm saying that it just isn't balanced. On the same level, a 14 year old just learning how to RP and gradually making improvements doesn't deserve to have a 24 year old rating them based on their beginner-status skills.

I want to repeat my primary point. I do not come here to be ranked. Nobody does. It is no one's responsibility to grade my god damn posts and put that grade in front of my face. I should have a say in whether or not I am subject to this system. When I PMed you about this, Remæus, your reply was, "just like any other feature we add, you can ignore it entirely." No. I can't ignore it when it's a bright yellow collection of stars directly beneath my user name and icon, and at the top of every single post I make. I'm being forced to take notice of it. We're here to RP. Not to be critiqued. And on that note, it's not even a useful critique. It's just a star. That doesn't tell me what people thought of it. It only makes me suspicious of my fellow RPers. A star rating only tells me that someone either likes or dislikes me/my post. Not what's good or bad about it or if they had any real reason for ranking it the way they did. It's a way to either boost or destroy someone's confidence. It breeds unrest and bitterness.

Top · by **St.Jimmy** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:40 am

To be fair, a 75 word count may not be something that people find very impressive. However, from what I've read, the content itself is satisfactory enough. Having the worth of your posts left up to the opinions of people you don't even know seems like an unreliable system.

I agree. However, when typing a post, above the box it instructs you to "Think Before You Post" and this only changes to "Good Work" when you reach the 75 word mark. Therefore, according to this site, 75 words is a good post, and most of my posts are longer than this.

I don't come here to be ranked. I understand if this system will not be removed just because one annoying writer, (i.e me), doesn't like it, but at the same time I just think it's a bit unfair. I am very dedicated to writing. Some might call this sad, and I do have a life. I'm just very passionate about what I write, whether I post it on here or write for my own personal benefit. I don't think it's fair that this should be rated by an opinionated system which can and will be abused.

I welcome constructive system, but like ThatsNotPoetry said, it's just a star. It doesn't tell me how to improve - it just tells me that people thought my post was no good, and that is slightly hurtful, no matter what people say. I've been writing since before I could actually write properly and my parents had to put the words on paper from what I was saying. On another site I have been on, we received feedback for our short stories and I liked that system because it helped me to improve in leaps and bounds. But these stars are just that - stars.

On the other hand, I appreciate that this is your site and you're trying new things and that I'm not the only one who matters. Just airing my opinion.

Top · by **Syren Song** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 10:49 am

ThatsNotPoetry wrote:Fascinating how a simple post about seeing the issue from multiple perspectives was landed a 2 star rating. Perhaps because often people will naturally rate a post based on their opinion of what is being said, rather than how it is said or the effort put into the words. Again, exactly why I don't like the idea of my "RP reputation" being left at the hands of the judgmental (or left up to "automatic three star rates.")

To be fair, a 75 word count may not be something that people find very impressive. However, from what I've read, the content itself is satisfactory enough. Having the worth of your posts left up to the opinions of people you don't even know seems like an unreliable system.

______________________________________________________

Notice how nobody had any complaints about how their RP was interpreted or how their RP was judged, until now. There wasn't a problem until people were being forced to see that their reputation is being decided by people with zero credentials in judging anyone here--let alone the ability to judge fairly. In fact, even from the most basic of standpoints, there are people in their 20's and 30's having their writing skill judged by 13 - 15 year olds. Considering there are far more "young people" here than otherwise, that will be the norm. I'm not saying kids haven't the ability to properly digest good RP. I'm saying that it just isn't balanced. On the same level, a 14 year old just learning how to RP and gradually making improvements doesn't deserve to have a 24 year old rating them based on their beginner-status skills.

I want to repeat my primary point. I do not come here to be ranked. Nobody does. It is no one's responsibility to grade my god damn posts and put that grade in front of my face. I should have a say in whether or not I am subject to this system. When I PMed you about this, Remæus, your reply was, "just like any other feature we add, you can ignore it entirely." No. I can't ignore it when it's a bright yellow collection of stars directly beneath my user name and icon, and at the top of every single post I make. I'm being forced to take notice of it. We're here to RP. Not to be critiqued. And on that note, it's not even a useful critique. It's just a star. That doesn't tell me what people thought of it. It only makes me suspicious of my fellow RPers. A star rating only tells me that someone either likes or dislikes me/my post. Not what's good or bad about it or if they had any real reason for ranking it the way they did. It's a way to either boost or destroy someone's confidence. It breeds unrest and bitterness.

As I told you privately, I am beginning to sway more towards the other end of the spectrum now on this subject, as I do entirely agree with every point you've made, ThatsNotPoetry. I can't argue with any of it, and I do feel the same way.

Yes, exactly. People will hold biases and rate posts based solely on how it effects them rather then taking on a neutral point of view and rating based on the overall general point or effort.

Being a 21 year old woman, I certainly don't like the idea of children rating my posts in an immature and thoughtless manner. I know I myself wouldn't have been fully capable of rating someone's role play when I was just 13 (the age when I first started to role play). It is definitely unbalanced. Of course, now if I were to rate a younger person's role play, that wouldn't be fair to them either, as they are still young and have much to learn. While their posts may not be impressive to me personally, they may very well be good writers for their own age.

I also agree that, despite how easy it is to say, it is not as easy to ignore these reputation points, for the reasons you've always stated. This feature will and already has manifested hostility, bitterness, and grudges. No one wants to be rated poorly, especially if they have put forth a lot of thought and work into their posts. It isn't fair to them if some random person comes along and clicks on a low star, thus diminishing their rank as a member of this site.

I know this started out with the absolute best intentions, Remæus, and I can certainly see this from both sides (as I already stated in my first post here). However, there do seem to be many flaws in this system which are causing people to become quickly unsettled, and with good reason.

Top · by **Circ** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:05 pm

Posts that aren't voted on receive a 3-star default. That may explain why people feel they're being rated as mediocre writers. The other reason, people giving poor ratings just to be mean, makes an assumption about the community that is rather negative. I would like to think that most of the people in this community are nice, not vindictive. However, there is code to help prevent that from happening, based on trends, but of course nothing is perfect.

Top · by **ThatsNotPoetry** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:24 pm

Circ wrote:Posts that aren't voted on receive a 3-star default. That may explain why people feel they're being rated as mediocre writers. The other reason, people giving poor ratings just to be mean, makes an assumption about the community that is rather negative. I would like to think that most of the people in this community are nice, not vindictive. However, there is code to help prevent that from happening, based on trends, but of course nothing is perfect.

The fact that people will vote based on opinions and biases isn't a bad assumption about this community. It's a well-founded assumption based on human behavior in general. I don't think it is a more active problem here than anywhere else. I have already seen it in action, here. I see the active posters in the Discussion threads, ripping people apart if they so much as disagree with them. I see them get away with it, I see them keep a generally popular status, and I see them try to harass people out of threads. I see folks with good posts getting low ranks because people that the "system" considers trustworthy have ranked them poorly based on opinions with the subject matter. Explain the code to me again and again, and it still won't make these things go away. The code doesn't stop bad ratings from affecting people. As I said, a perfectly well-rounded person may make an unfounded bad vote because of simple human biases. The system is not human, nor is it psychic. The system relies on people's opinions, which are fickle and subject to error. No algorithm can save it from these errors.

We're well aware of the 3-star default, and it's one of the things I don't like.

As you said, nothing is perfect. I still disagree with being forcibly subject to it.

Of course, this isn't my board. Technically, if Remæus wants to require everyone to post a photo of themselves in pink spandex as their avatar, he has that right as this is his website. He can make whatever requirements he wants, and I'm aware of this. I sure would like them to be fair, though. I like all the staff here quite a bit. My purpose isn't to cause an uproar. I appreciate that this thread was made for us to discuss our opinions of this system.

Top · by **DealerInDarkness** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 2:37 pm

Okay, that makes sense to me.

There's only one tiny problem I found: Why do new players have to wait thirty days and fifty posts? What if you had a role play and all its RPers were new? Then you'd get a really low rating.

So what's the deal with having to wait?

Top · by **Circ** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 4:46 pm

ThatsNotPoetry wrote:I see the active posters in the Discussion threads, ripping people apart if they so much as disagree with them. I see them get away with it, I see them keep a generally popular status, and I see them try to harass people out of threads.

The type of behavior you're describing there is trolling, which is against the rules. If you see it, you should do your part as a member of the community and report it so that it can be dealt with.

That'sNotPoetry wrote:As you said, nothing is perfect. I still disagree with being forcibly subject to it.

It isn't rape. It is something you can ignore if you don't care for it. Maybe Remaeus will add in an option to hide the stars for people who are offended by their rating and don't want to rate others. With that said, I think your being a bit melodramatic.

===

DealerIntheDarkness wrote:There's only one tiny problem I found: Why do new players have to wait thirty days and fifty posts? What if you had a role play and all its RPers were new? Then you'd get a really low rating.

So what's the deal with having to wait?

The alternative is that people could create multiple accounts and cast votes for themselves, or cast negative votes against other people. At least with this requirement, they have to be an active member of the community. And you're incorrect in saying they'll always get a really low rating. They can still have their posts voted on by others.

Top · by **ThatsNotPoetry** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 6:10 pm

Circ wrote:The type of behavior you're describing there is trolling, which is against the rules. If you see it, you should do your part as a member of the community and report it so that it can be dealt with.

Believe me I have. I have.

Circ wrote:It isn't rape. It is something you can ignore if you don't care for it. Maybe Remaeus will add in an option to hide the stars for people who are offended by their rating and don't want to rate others. With that said, I think your being a bit melodramatic.

No, it certainly is not rape. Not at all comparable, in fact. This thread was opened by the Admin for us to ask questions and give opinions, and I am giving reasons and examples for all the things I find unacceptable about the rating system. This is hardly melodrama. I'm making my point and waiting for someone to give me a reply that doesn't beat around the bush. Luckily, you just gave me one. Most sincerely, I thank you. I really hope there is a way for us to be exempt from the star thing. This place is purely for recreation--not to pit ourselves against the ranks of others.

Now that I've been given an answer, I'm satisfied. Have a nice evening.

Top · by **Circ** on Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:01 pm

Let me restate something that I realized I wasn't really clear on in my previous post regarding the stars. Once a post has reached its max voting time period, it defaults to average (3 stars), but that is not factored into a user's reputation. Only voted on posts are factored into a user's reputation.

Also, what's so wrong about being average? Is there something offensive about a post being of average quality? ThatsNotPoetry, you use the word mediocre, which tends to have an even more negative connotation in people's minds than average. Should we change our wording to something more friendly? In my mind, there is nothing wrong with a user who is between 3 and 4 stars. They're a productive, acceptable member of the community who does a good job roleplaying. Only very few, excellent members of the community should fall between 4 and 5 stars.

For example, the post you just wrote and the post I'm writing now are average. They describe something satisfactorily and don't have typographical or grammatical errors, but they aren't something to give a standing ovation to.

Top · by **St.Jimmy** on Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am

Circ, I'm two stars. You said that in your opinion there's nothing wrong with being 3 or 4 stars. However, I've recently posted in an RP, (as recently as yesterday, in fact), where every single post was rated 1 star from every writer, and it's already dragged me back down to 2.6. People are abusing this system and I don't think that the algorithm is stopping this. I disagree with my posts being subject to opinion. I don't vote other writers despite my opinion that maybe they have made a bad post. Therefore, I don't want my posts rated by people spamming.

I appreciate the time taken to read this and I'm sorry for being a bother. I'm just slightly upset that for all my many, decent-sized posts on this site, one person spamming an RP can drag me all the way down to 2.6 after it took me around a week to get closer to 3 stars.

The main problem is, in my opinion, that people don't vote fairly. I don't think enough people use this system properly, as in voting some people four stars, some three, some five, or some one or two. It's mainly just spammers putting everyone down and the occasional person giving a realistic vote.

But maybe that's just me with this problem.

Top · by **Tony** on Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:38 pm

No. This system is terrible. Here are the reasons on why it is terrible.

1. It is Flawed
Every rating system that has ever existed has been completely prone to abuse. There is no system out there that another person can't abuse, get around or go through. The only thing this rating system is doing is providing a window of abuse and overall rendering the system completely broken.

2. Nobody Needs a Label
If someone thinks that a person is good at all, then they should tell that person. Rating a member is the same as giving him a label, and pretty much about 9 out of 10 people who care about labels hate the crap out of them. Most people consider labels as a bad and offensive tool designed to just put people into groups. We're people, not assembly products.

3. Having a One-Star Rating Sucks.
Let's face it. There are a LOT of people, now, who have a 1-star rating. This is cruel. The ratings not only offend you with a label, but they broadcast to the entire site that, no, you're not good. You're a one-star. You're the lowliest of the low. You're not as good as the three-star people. No, not even as good as that unknown person with bad grammar, yet three stars. Do you see the big flaw? People with low ratings will leave.

4. Ratings Encourage Longer Posts, but Where's the Fun?
Yeah. I'd rather not spend my writing time worrying if somebody else will think my post is worthy of their approval. I don't need a label or a person to tell me that I'm good. I am good because I think I'm good. You're good because you know you're good. People write things because they like to. It's a hobby. This is starting to feel like a job. Not only this, but people aren't seeing me. Does this mean I suck? No. But, according to the system, I'm average. We're all average or worse in this system. For whatever reason, even you, the creator of the forum, itself, don't have a five-star rating. <sacasm> Admit it. You editted out those one-star ratings, didn't you? </sarcasm>

5. I Can't Vote.
New here? Sucks to be you. Watch as you plummet down to a virtual zero on the forum while you have nothing to do about it. You must wait thirty days AND make fifty posts to be 'accepted' to this terrible system. This is painful. Painful for about three seconds before I realize that I don't want a part of the system, anyway, but painful, nonetheless. Why should I have no voice in rating? If people abuse it, now, why not newcomers? Newcomers and members alike should also be able to vote themselves, as well. Why can't we have a voice on what we think of ourselves? That's stupid.

6. All Rating Systems are Bad.
No. They are flawed, offensive, annoying, elitist-inducing pieces of crap that shouldn't even be on this forum. The only solution is to take it off. It may seem cool for one reason, but these reasons above clearly outweigh the verdict. This is bad for ALL members. This forum was fine, no, better without it.

by **Circ** on Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:42 pm

ThatsNotPoetry,

Thank you for your PM. You raised some excellent points, and while I will refrain from reiterating what you said

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