Kestrel wrote:I'm very aware....

Aight, sorry. Perhaps I just misunderstood you, it's all cool, though.


As for you Aniihya...

Aniihya wrote:Well, Sheoul. Only a moron radical atheist would bash religion,

STOP RIGHT THERE.

Let's see how long it takes for you to realise how stupid you are.

I doubt you realize how stupid you are yourself. Normally you shouldnt give a shit about religion. Preaching is exactly what you are doing and you are doing it in the worst way possible. Its like your goal is: "No matter what, you have to bring people away from religion." The rational and smart way is to shut up and stop bitching about religion in general where you even stereotype religion. If you think that religion killed many people, well Stalins radical atheism cost 20 million lives on the basis of religious persecution and another 40 million out of paranoia of spies in the USSR.

You Sheoul are one of the most ignorant people who I have met on RPGateway.

Aniihya, everything you say is like a quote from "everything unfounded a Christian has ever said to me" a book I didn't publish or write.

Please stop it.

You're making a fool of yourself and I don't like to see you do that.

Actually you are being the fool at the moment. You havent ever brought anything but name calling, just like American politicians. By the way the burden of proof doesnt lie on me since all the proof radical atheists have brought only apply to disproving the Bible, Quran, Talmud and Torah. But you dont know my belief and you therefore cannot bring any proof against my religion. You cannot even bring proof that there are no gods. You claiming that there are no gods is just your opinion but not fact. And if you wouldnt have started with name calling and desperately trying to bring me away from my belief, I would have respected your opinion. You shouldnt even compare me to a Christian because there is a huge difference. Being a dick gets you nowhere. Now stop the name calling and stop labeling theists as retarded or morons or at least replace theist with fundie because it is more of a fact the fundamentalists are undereducated or lack some intelligence.

I propose this thread be left alone or locked. The initial discussion has already ended, and it is now deforming into a "punch and jab" contest. It's not a debate, and even if it was, it wouldn't be on topic with this thread.

@ Sheoul: I'm not sure why you posted in this thread in the first place, since you don't acknowledge any religion. A single portion of your first post came off as abrasive, and obnoxious, but was none-the-less still on topic. The rest of it was just a clump of what your opinion of religion is, which does not relate to the preaching of religion.

I am sincere with my words, and am not stating them with any bias, just because I happen to follow a religion. I am pointing out what I have witnessed in this thread as a normal/neutral user.

I haven't bothered to read all of the posts. I've read the first half of the first page and the very last one from dealing with it on this page. From what dealing with it said, it sounds lie it has turned into pointless bickering, but I would like to put my opinion in anyways in case someone would like to listen to what I have to say.

People all have their beliefs and have a right to express their beliefs. Given the fact that everyone has a right to speak what's on their mind, I don't see a reason why they can't preach to people.
As an atheist however, I can find it incredibly annoying when I have people telling me that the beliefs I have are wrong and that I should follow their beliefs. That is from a human standpoint. I'm sure you all understand what it's like to be human and how when your told that you are wrong, it can be taken as offensive.

People don't understand that what others believe in is true to them. We all focus on the soul fact that our belief is right. We don't even take time to consider that we might be wrong. So if we are wrong, what does that mean? We might have lived our lives against the way that some divine entity wanted us to live by or we could just become nonexistent after we die. Either way, we will have hopefully lived the life we wanted to live and people should try to accept that.

People don't understand that what others believe in is true to them. We all focus on the soul fact that our belief is right. We don't even take time to consider that we might be wrong.

Yes, I agree with this. A good portion of people don't concern themselves with what others might believe, and why they believe it. It's when you learn , and I mean seriously get a hands-on (In other words go to a place where they practice a certain religion, and such, and intimately observe their practices) experience with another religion/belief/or what have you, that you really know why other congregations of people belive what they believe.

I did this eact thing in one of my college classes, and I will admit I would not have had my eyes opened as much as I would from just doing my own research. I went to a Hindu temple just a month or two ago, and after learning about the religion and watching a congregation of people carry out the actual practices, I understand to a much fuller extent why they follow this religion (and I sincerely respect them for it as well). I really enjoyed how social they were too.

dealing with it: Fine with me. I just dont want people bashing in and turning this into a flame war.

Mr. Crow: Hinduists can be the nicest people as long as you acknowledge their beliefs and their rites. I have some Nepalese Hindu friends and the good part about Hinduists is they dont care about what others believe because everyone has the right to believe what they want.

And Doomed: Are you what people call an "agnostic atheist"? An agnostic atheist is someone who doesnt believe in a deity but leaves the option open that there is a slight possibility that there is one or many.

Aniihya: I don't think I'd call myself an agnostic atheist, but the description does fit me well. There was a time in my life when I didn't accept religion at all. I still don't, but I believe that there is some good to come from it.
Just recently, I've been dabbling in philosophy (mostly ethical, but I have looked at other things). That is where I got my idea of not knowing if one is right or wrong in their beliefs. There are tons of arguments for and against each and most arguments can be made to be quite valid and logical.
I think the best way to live life is to just flow down different paths through life. I believe anything could be possible, but at the same time, we could have no idea what we're talking about at all. It is possible that we are all wrong.
I hope this made sense to you. It sure didn't for me. :P

Anyways, we are all guilty of preaching in one way or another. Whenever we contribute something to the media, we are preaching. I forgot to add that point to my previous argument.

Umm, I am most definately not wanting to turn this into a flame war or anything, but I had a thought on what Mr Doomed said:

"So if we are wrong, what does that mean? We might have lived our lives against the way that some divine entity wanted us to live by or we could just become nonexistent after we die. Either way, we will have hopefully lived the life we wanted to live and people should try to accept that"


See, I would like to believe that, and I understand what you are getting at, however, in the case of my Christianity (and a few other religions), this may not be the case. You see, we view it that if someone does not follow God's way (or gods in the case of other religions), then there is a severe punishment; the cliche "hell" (which i personally believe in). This is not to say that I am going to force everyone to believe what I say, however it does give me (since I obviously believe it, though others don't) an urgency to at least allow people to understand my point of view so they can make their own choice about their belief.
C.S Lewis (a firm believer) said something like this (can't find exact quote at the moment):

If you are right (there is no god or another religion etc.), and I am wrong, I have had a good life anyway (like Dr. Doomed kind of said). However, if I am right (there is only one true God), and you are wrong, you have lost everything (because in my belief, there will be dire consequences).

Just to let you know, that I am saying this with the outmost respect, and I just wanted to see how people back up there views. This is just my beliefs, and as I have said, no one HAS to believe it.

Shané: I have to disagree with the hell part. Non-believers do not go to hell but are rather stuck in the living world as a wandering soul. Hell or the seven underworlds is only for believers who behave immorally (murder, repeated theft and so on) and is only temporary, like prison. The terms of getting out are to sit off your sentence and truly regret what you have done. We also dont believe that anyone needs to believe, it is their choice. I would rather believe my belief and think that it might be the right path.

Shi-chan: Was your dad a follower of Asatru because thats the way many Asatru believers see it: Gods who solely have the role of inspiration and teaching good morals. In comparison to that Odinism actually holds onto the certain existence of the gods with Odin as the lord god. My belief is sort of a thing between: Gods resemble teaching good morals through stories/fables while they do exist, just they arent capable of making drastic changes but only can influence the way of things.

About the topic, I know that many things can be preaching but I mean the type of preaching that many street preachers do: Hate speech. Hate speech is a serious problem and a flaw in free speech because hate speech can lead to violence and blackmail against people who disagree. The worst thing is when a missionary goes to Africa to a starving animist tribe and offers food only if they convert.

Aniihya wrote:About the topic, I know that many things can be preaching but I mean the type of preaching that many street preachers do: Hate speech. Hate speech is a serious problem and a flaw in free speech

I disagree with that. The ability to voice your hate is not a problem; it is a defining characteristic of free speech. I mean sure I want a good majority to shut the fuck up, amongst which street preachers, but here's cliché quote you've heard before to illustrate my PoV: "I may disagree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

On the other hand that also means I have the right to tell them straight in their face what I think of them. A right I most enjoy. Doesn't mean it is polite or socially desired to say everything on your mind, but I don't see it as a serious problem/flaw of free speech. The person's ignorance is the problem, not free speech. That and I'd rather deal with street preachers than people deciding what I can and cannot say. Well that and "Kill all idiots" is against most people's good morals :P

As for the last part of you post; Persons can do as you note in your example without ever resorting to hate-speech. Seriously flawed logic there. Blackmail and hate speech can be mutually exclusive.

Are you defining hate speech as when someone is angry? I meant the type where the person verbally attacks you for non-personal reasons (f.e.: religion, sexuality, race). Those type of people need to shut up or at least express their opinion in a civilized way.

Oh yeah, I said something here.

Stupid opinions are still opinions. I'd rather have people angry than people censored. Different discussion, though.

One has to realize when one is speaking to an ism and when one is speaking to a person. It is silly to be irritated by an ism because Isms aren't people, they are malicious little viruses which infect peoples brains and puppet them in order to spread the ism to other hosts. Whether the ism is fundamentalism, conservatism, liberalism, feminism, atheism, or agnosticism, they all follow the same pattern of predetermined conclusions and they all erode the host's ability for creative and original thought. Avoid those severely infected with isms and monitor the integrity and independence of your own thinking to prevent ism infiltration.