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by **Zhelir Darkfall** on Mon May 19, 2008 5:59 am

Clearly, I have not been clear enough on this issue.

So let me be perfectly, crystal clear this time around:

In 99% of cases, I will NOT tolerate the public abuse of ANY staff member, the exception being those of the ilk that Saladin started, which end up backfiring on the poster, and I find that a more fitting punishment than any formal reprimand.

I find myself repeating this fairly often these days, but I will again: The staff on this site give up their time and, more often than not, a small piece of their sanity to work here, for no reward, and for that reason I will not let people run amok insulting them.

Another thing I seem to be repeating a lot, but if you have a problem with a staff member, CONTACT AN ADMINISTRATOR. I have not ONCE, in my years of working here, received a PM, IM, or email about having issues with a staff member, yet I can't count how many of these damned "bash the staff" topics I've shut down. So, because NO ONE seems to get the message, I'll say it again, in great big, fancy letters:

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ONE OR MORE STAFF MEMBERS, CONTACT AN ADMINISTRATOR. DON'T START A TOPIC ABOUT IT OR COMPLAIN TO EVERYONE ELSE ABOUT IT.

There is NO excuse for this sort of thing, none at all. Even if it's an Administrator you have a problem with, CONTACT A DIFFERENT ONE. I have heard nothing but love and groveling for Remaeus, so he should ALWAYS be an option for you to contact, should you be having issues with another Administrator.

This is the last warning I'm giving on this issue. Hell, if you have such an unfathomable urge to scream at the staff, do it to me.

That's right, I give the site as a whole permission to send me the most hateful, loathsome PMs they wish, if that's what it takes to get people to start following this one, simple rule, and I won't punish you in any formal sense. I will respond, and it will likely be just as unkind as it was received, but you will not be disciplined.

So, there we are. There should be NO MORE reason for people to run about insulting the staff, but JUST IN CASE, I feel it's prudent to say this one more time:

IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ONE OR MORE STAFF MEMBERS, CONTACT AN ADMINISTRATOR. DON'T START A TOPIC ABOUT IT OR COMPLAIN TO EVERYONE ELSE ABOUT IT.

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by **Angel_Melfina** on Mon May 19, 2008 6:25 am

I JUST read that Administrator topic, and you read my mind by posting this, Justin, because I was about to FLIP the hell out and do it myself.

I want everyone to know that if they have a problem with anyone on the Support Team or the General Moderator team, they can come to me with their complaints. Zhelir says he has never received a PM complaint about a staff member, but as a leader of both teams, I have received several of them while I've been in my position and I take care of them as respectfully and quickly as possible.

I take great care in picking the people on the two important teams I lead. None of us are perfect. We want to have fun just like everyone else while we do our job. I'd like everyone to try and put themselves in our shoes. This isn't as easy as it looks, and things can't always go perfectly. It can be very stressful and overwhelming quite often, even if it looks like a breeze to the rest of you. There is a lot that goes on behind the scenes that the rest of the members don't even know about. We do lots of work and planning to make this site awesome and keep it that way. We want to make sure each and every one of you are happy. That is what we are ultimately here for.

We love the site, and we love the people in it. We are all here for the same reason. Please let us know if there is a problem so that we may take care of it, just complain in a respectful manner to prevent catastrophes and unnecessary drama.

Plzkthx.

<3 Angel_Melfina/Dani

by **Vexar** on Mon May 19, 2008 7:32 am

I completely agree with this, therefore, nominating it to be stickied for any future troublemakers to see.

With as stressed out as things get, I still come back to help. I can tell you right now, both Dani and Myself had had our down times with this site. Yet we care enough to come back to you all every time...

by **ShadowWake** on Mon May 19, 2008 9:05 am

K, I'm going to suck up now...

Thanks for doing such a good job, you guys - I know I couldn't have done it!

*suck up over: bring the bucket* ^_^

by **Kouketsu** on Mon May 19, 2008 10:57 am

I'm going to disagree to an extent with what's being said here. Abusing a staff member in public should be an offense, yes, but this comes across as an all-out ban on speaking one's mind about the staff in general, which I don't find to be reasonable, nor very helpful for us staff either.

More or less just yanking a direct quote of myself from the "A Formal Apology" thread in this forum:

Honestly though, I feel like one of the few members among staff that honestly doesn't mind much if people are going to be vocally criticizing us or the site or something as long as it's within reason, whether it be public or in private. I know firsthand that forcing users to restrict their complaints to simply one PM with one administrator is the kind of thing that will actively discourage user input - be it good or bad - because of the feeling that their voice might not be heard. Furthermore, it's difficult to discern whether the concern of a user is solely their own or that of the entire community when most of them won't speak up because they feel as if they alone have those particular sentiments. There's no way to test the will of the people if we can't view them as a whole.

As long as a thread is created constructively, respectfully, and the case is laid out formally, I think users should be allowed to speak their mind on issues like this as much as they want in public forums. The only genuine distinction between such and the thread Saladin created, for example, was that it was a user-user squabble, not something that involved nor affected the entire community in any way whatsoever. But if the actions of a single staff member are affecting multiple people or the community as a whole, I feel that by all means users should be allowed to post a complaint about it. It's so much easier for an administrator or moderator to brush off a pressing matter when it's brought up just to them and no other eyes will come upon it.

by **Angel_Melfina** on Mon May 19, 2008 12:11 pm

Kou, I'm not going to disagree with you on the fact that some people won't speak up and would feel more comfortable knowing others have their same issue, but I think if someone has something to complain about, they should be able to step up and voice their opinions.

I had a complaint recently from one member about one staff member. I was PMed about it, seeing as it was only concerning the one member and the one staff member, and it was taken care of quickly and easily.

I see it as this, and I'm only speaking from my own experience...If there is an occurrence that affects/offends more than one person, then it should still be taken care of in a more private manner. If someone is offended, no matter how extensive or not it is, they should take the initiative to report it to the proper people. I'd rather have a slew of complaints about one incident fill my PM inbox than to have a thread posted that stirs up more drama, because then there are handfuls of people diving into the situation that aren't even involved.

The thread with you and Saladin I found to be very distasteful from every side and I think it's the perfect example for why we should not post complaints in public. A lot of people got involved that had nothing to do with the situation and you see what it turned into.

You mention a constructive thread for people to post complaints where there are multiple complaints about a staff member, but I honestly don't think that is possible. No matter how personal or not the complaints are, I don't think it is appropriate at all to throw a staff member in the middle of a shower of complaints and expect something good to come of it. I don't think it's possible.

by **Kouketsu** on Mon May 19, 2008 4:23 pm

I still don't feel as if members should be given a reprimand for bringing to public eyes issues that affect the public themselves just because those particular issues might be caused by a single administrator or moderator or something of that nature.

It seems that the prevalent argument currently is that insults and bashing are going to be likely results of one bringing to public a matter that directly involves one staff member and issues caused by aforementioned staff member, but I believe that an outright ban on this is far from the right route to take. If I were to flatly insult you right now personally, Mel, would that suddenly invalidate the rest of this thread? I just get the feeling that these issues would be resolved so much more quickly and effectively by merely deleting those posts that might be contributing to flaming or personal insults and issuing a warning to the member who made them, as opposed to preventing these threads from being brought to light in the first place.

I find it not only a much more valid sign of individual and community maturity, but also a more fair method of action to take if the users are allowed to create public threads and discuss issues surrounding problems that might be caused the community by the actions of a single staff member. If we're going to be so confident in ourselves and our ability to handle complaints taken in private, I don't see why, for one, the users are going to have much reason to complain about the staff to begin with, and two, why we can't be mature, responsible, and dignified enough to answer their complaints publicly for the sake of both alleviating the fears other members might have about standing up when necessary and setting future example for similar issues.

The issue here should not be the fact that users are criticizing staff and complaining about us and our policies. It should be the fact that we gave them anything to complain about in the first place.

by **Angel_Melfina** on Mon May 19, 2008 4:58 pm

Kouketsu wrote:I just get the feeling that these issues would be resolved so much more quickly and effectively by merely deleting those posts that might be contributing to flaming or personal insults and issuing a warning to the member who made them, as opposed to preventing these threads from being brought to light in the first place.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding contrary here, but if this is the case, shouldn't you just have deleted Saladin's post insulting you and warned him instead of replying and encouraging him, letting the post escalate into what it became? Also, I don't want to prevent these kinds of threads totally, I just think that most threads of this nature will turn into pointless flaming, just as the Administrators thread did. I believe that staff members are supposed to put fires out, not fuel them.

As for giving the members anything to complain about...Every team on the site, as far as I know, is constantly working to be more efficient and make the members happy. When I see issues arise between staff members and community members, I take care of them and make sure to address these issues with the teams that I manage. Shit happens. That's unavoidable. It's the way we handle things that separates us from the staff of other sites.

by **Myrin** on Mon May 19, 2008 6:03 pm

Excuse me for stating the obvious =P but it's all about "tactics" or how one approaches the said topic. I think the fear is that if members start pointing out the flaws they see in public, others might join in and flaming and disagreements are more then likely going to happen. Unfortunately most people don't know how to argue without resorting to name calling and the likes, so of course these threads are ALWAYS going to get locked. I think it's good for people to be able to state their thoughts without fear of banning in public, but I also think there is a way they can go about it. In that said thread, the responses stated towards me personally (I've forgiven ya for that tho

) and the one made towards the rest of the staff were both tasteless and it was basically just a total change of topic. The whole issue was a personal war between two people, not the rest of the staff. Sadly, some didn't see it as that and just hijacked the thread... <<

by **Kouketsu** on Mon May 19, 2008 11:29 pm

Angel_Melfina wrote:
Kouketsu wrote:I just get the feeling that these issues would be resolved so much more quickly and effectively by merely deleting those posts that might be contributing to flaming or personal insults and issuing a warning to the member who made them, as opposed to preventing these threads from being brought to light in the first place.

I'm sorry if I'm sounding contrary here, but if this is the case, shouldn't you just have deleted Saladin's post insulting you and warned him instead of replying and encouraging him, letting the post escalate into what it became? Also, I don't want to prevent these kinds of threads totally, I just think that most threads of this nature will turn into pointless flaming, just as the Administrators thread did. I believe that staff members are supposed to put fires out, not fuel them.

The fundamental difference in that thread is that, despite the title it was given, it had nothing to do with the administrative staff of anybody's abilities to effectively be a contributing member of the site's staff, just merely a completely unrelated issue that happened to be made public because the member in question had a personal issue with me and I just happen to be an administrator. If the case in question was Saladin asking me to delete a bunch of nonsense posts that a spammer was making in a thread of his and I refused to do it because I didn't feel like it or something, then I'd find that within reason to publicly call to question.

It happens in chat all the time, and while the two media might be different, the fundamental idea is still the same. The only difference is that here on the forums it won't be swept away in a sea of other text so that it can be even more thoroughly evaluated, particularly by those that wouldn't have been able to witness a similar discussion taking place through other means.

Bunch it all in one "Staff & Site Related Complaints and Issues" thread if you'd prefer that method and just state in the thread that no staff names should be mentioned. Problem solved. Staff-related issues can be spoken of publicly and nobody gets their name dragged through the mud. But honestly, if I haven't made it clear enough before, it should be by now that I seriously disagree with the idea of suppressing the voices of our userbase. It should be clear enough as it is from the forum rules alone in general that nobody should be insulted or flamed, and if that's what this thread is asserting to support, why do we need to make it seem like the staff deserves special mention? "Don't publicly insult staff!" doesn't fall under the umbrella of "Don't publicly insult anybody!"?

by **Skallagrim** on Tue May 20, 2008 12:12 am

Well being one staff whose name was bandied about by a community member because I erred in removing some offensive postings, which I apologized for and asked for help in rectifying the problem, I feel that it is difficult to have purely constructive criticism.

People tend to be more emotionally charged and take offense over the slightest thing when they have the degree of anonymity provided, then they blow it out of proportion, feeling that screaming and throwing a fit will A) resolve the issue and B) allow them to disparage a person with impunity.

Clearly both A and B are not the results we want, a place where a community member can question actions in a reasonable way would be ideal. However with the vastly different levels of emotional maturity among the community makes that option an almost impossible one.

Just my opinion since I have been on the receiving end of a community member disparaging me.

by **Angel_Melfina** on Tue May 20, 2008 5:54 am

You are right, Kou, in that it happens all the time in the chat. But on a personal note, I do my best not to act like that on the forum or in the chat. As a staff member, I feel we are to set an example. Whether Saladin's thread was a personal insult to you or an insult to your position, I think it should have been handled the same for the sake of us being leaders of the fantastic community we have here.

Eric is the perfect example of setting an example. He handles everything in a professional manner and knows how to act in every situation so that people can look up to his actions. He is the example for the staff, and I feel it's our duty to spread that example as staff members to the rest of the site.

I don't want to silence the voice of the user base. I just want to take the most appropriate route possible to implement respectable solutions in a timely manner for any situation that may arise. It is just my opinion that the best way to do that is in a private manner. I don't see that as muting anyone's voice. To my knowledge, we already have rules addressing insulting other members, staff or not. This thread was put in place solely in response to the Administrators thread that morphed into a bash-the-staff fest. It's not saying we're any better than anyone else nor ignoring the needs of the rest of the site.

by **The Rogue Doll** on Wed May 21, 2008 10:54 pm

It's hard when dealing with these kind of issues to find a happy medium between shutting off people's ability to express themselves and allowing them to curb other's right to not be berated unjustly. But I think Gelmel's right. There is really no viable reason to not take care of things in private. Taking care of it in private does not mean the person has to stand alone, however. They have all sorts of options. They can pm other members for advice even. Then they are getting people's opinions without involving random members who just want to bitch.

People tend to not really read things through, or think them through, expecially when they have no prior knowledge of the situation or people. Therefore, most of the time what they have to say is no great benefit to anyone.

Yeah, there are risks to stopping public bashing of mods, but the benefit, in my opinion, outways the risk and negatives.

by **Xersist** on Wed May 21, 2008 11:22 pm

Damn ZD you scary, I'm guessing there was one page that broke the camels back, cuss I feel allot of untapped rage.

And Im reading it from most of the mods as well, like they don't expect that there are critics. Im mean sure, some people are gonna be pricks, but I just saying, as devils advocate that there are gonna be some bad seeds, and there are some that i think have a right to complain, if they have the PRGW in mind, and how to better it, rather than just bitching about it.

But I think one thing all mods and amds need to know about how they should show that they don't need this crap.

DONT SAY ANYTHING. let the piss and vigor mess in its own brew, as-long as it isn't effecting the site, who gives a flying fuck. I know that this page is needed, but I dont think hunting for bashers is any better.

Its better not to be the Witches or the Spanish Inquisition. Both sides are just gonna fight till Armageddon comes, so fueling the fire, will not help it die down.

But like I said again, this is page is needed.

Though I have one compliant about the staff, not enough. XD all hail the Reich! join us or die! hahahaha

by **Angel_Melfina** on Thu May 22, 2008 5:07 am

Xersist wrote:DONT SAY ANYTHING. let the piss and vigor mess in its own brew, as-long as it isn't effecting the site, who gives a flying fuck. I know that this page is needed, but I dont think hunting for bashers is any better.

I don't want to go as far as to say what is quoted above. Whether an issue directly/indirectly affects the site or not, we still care. If someone is emotionally bothered or stressed out about the actions of another user and we can help, we WANT to help, so let us know! I don't want anyone to think they just have to let things go because it's not bothering anyone else or anything. We are here to serve the members, so utilize that, PLEASE. It's our duty and we want to help you all. Everyone deserves to have fun here. Staff included. The faster we get a situation resolved, the faster everyone can be happy again, right?

And Xersist, I know we don't have enough staff, but we are working on it, I promise. We hoping to make a lot of good changes in the next few weeks that will have nothing but a positive effect on our beloved community.

by **Xersist** on Thu May 22, 2008 10:36 am

I know Im just playing Devil's advocate, nuthing more.

If your having trouble with staff, Im always up for work, on the offside you need it, IM on 5 hours everday it seems like, might as well get something done. other than just pickin my nose XD

All Hial The Fuir, Master!, all hial the ROLEPLAYGATEWAY! (talk about being a nazi XD)

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