Note: I'd just like to say beforehand that I don't want this to turn into a mindless, profane argument. If it does so, I'm abandoning this thread and those who derailed the thread should (being that I don't have that power) be punished accordingly.

Alright, so I had an interesting experience today. Just working the bar as usual when an African-American man entered the bar and asked for a drink. I gave him his drink, we talked for a little, and I went along with my day. The guy started talking to another (Caucasian) male and eventually it changed to a fistfight.

After finally separating the two and trying too figure out what happened, the African-American claimed that the Caucasian made a racist remark toward him (called him "blackie"). So, I went to the Caucasian man and asked him what happened and he told me that he only said that after the African-American referred to him repeatedly as "whitey". Again, I talked to the African-American to find out if it was true, and he affirmed the Caucasian's story as well as told me, and I quote: "That's not racist".

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With this, I come to RPG with these three questions.

• Does the standard for racism change among the races?
• Can you persecute a race for past actions (eg. African-Americans "bullying" Caucasians for past of slavery)?
• Can you use racist remarks as a self-defense mechanism against racism?

From my experience and observation, I think that much of the root of modern day american racism comes from insecurity of one's self. For example... If a black guy calls a white guy "cracker" or such, he would simply say something similar to "Umm, okay. Whatever," or at least I would... However, in my experience if a white guy calls that black guy by the n word or the spanish word for "black", said white man would probably get a severe beating... Though there are other occasions where the situations are reversed.

Often it is a matter of insecurity (but not always) and others aggravating that insecurity either intentionally or accidentally. I live in the south, in the country of east Texas to be accurate, where the cultural divisions between blacks and whites are more defined and contrasting than other parts of the country, so it's a little easier to tell the difference between the two cultures and how they react.... and now I think I'm rambling. I hope I helped :)

TheNoremac42 wrote:If a black guy calls a white guy "cracker" or such, he would simply say something similar to "Umm, okay. Whatever," or at least I would... However, in my experience if a white guy calls that black guy by the n word or the spanish word for "black", said white man would probably get a severe beating...

Yes, but why is that allowed? Slavery was abolished two (?) hundred years ago. Their father's not a slave. Their grandfather wasn't a slave. There's no reason that any derogatory comment, let alone a racist one, should go unpunished based on two hundred year old problems. That's like me accusing the all of the everyday, average Germans of being a Nazi.

Again in my experience, it seems that in many neighborhoods with high black populations they teach each other that anything attributed with whites is bad. There is a certain mindset that comes with the culture that I do not entirely understand (and I wont go into right now) and probably never will... but I know that when a black man or woman separates themselves from this mindset/culture and "becomes white" (as some would call it), they are often shunned by their community and sometimes even their own family. I remember a story my dad told me about when he was a kid growing up in Illinois... They had a friend (a black girl) that went to their church. Instead of the stereotypical black person that we see in the ghettos of USA, she acted more "white". Well one day she decided to go along on a trip with my dad and his family (they weren't dating by the way, just friends) and when they returned she found a letter on her front porch saying that her family moved to another state and they hoped she could catch up.......

I think the reason why it happens is because in many places it is a cultural thing to be as different from whites as possible, and it is probably allowed because it is "politically correct". Racism is in fact scattered throughout politics... When you fill out a form, on it is usually a question that asks about your ethnicity or race. Why would they need to know that? Even the education system is like this. When a Texas school gets its results for the TAKS test the scores are categorized by ethnicity. Why? And when a certain section scores much lower than another they change the test to make it easier, [bad_accent=southern] 'cause, y'know... they don' wanna make the Mexicans look 'toopid yeh?... [/bad_accent]. And did you know that some companies have a "Diversity Office"? If a white guy and a black guy apply for jobs, and the white guy is better qualified, but the company is currently "unbalanced", sometimes the black guy will get the job. I think racism works both ways... the derogatory part is just one side of the coin.

Disclaimer: I am not racist. I simply use the words "black" and "white" because they are easier to say and type than "African-American" or "Caucasian".

Adrian_S wrote:

TheNoremac42 wrote:If a black guy calls a white guy "cracker" or such, he would simply say something similar to "Umm, okay. Whatever," or at least I would... However, in my experience if a white guy calls that black guy by the n word or the spanish word for "black", said white man would probably get a severe beating...

Yes, but why is that allowed? Slavery was abolished two (?) hundred years ago. Their father's not a slave. Their grandfather wasn't a slave. There's no reason that any derogatory comment, let alone a racist one, should go unpunished based on two hundred year old problems. That's like me accusing the all of the everyday, average Germans of being a Nazi.

Slavery was abolished about 150 years ago, but black people receiving equal rights is very recent, though it may not feel like it. The Civil Rights Act was passed only about 50 years ago, and that only put equality into law and the books, not into practice. Can we even say today that everyone that is a minority is truly equal? Words like the "n-word" and "negro" have negative connotations, implying hatred and oppression. Words like "whitey" and "cracker" just don't have the same kind of connotation of hate when directed at white people, because oppression and hatred were never real for them. The words used while beating and hanging African Americans have much more significance, even if the person being called this word has never actually been in the situation of his or her ancestors.

However, that is not to justify calling people "whitey" or "cracker" or the situation at the bar. That is only an explanation as to why I think black people get so upset whereas white people don't, not trying to say they should. To be honest, the guys you were talking about probably had a few drinks and wouldn't have gotten into a fight over this normally. The black guy just overreacted, probably thanks to whatever he was drinking. Calling the guy "whitey", he shouldn't expect the guy (who imagine wasn't trying to be racist, only jokey) not to say something back.

The white guy in your situation had the right idea. He should be able to jokingly say "blackie" right back. Humor trivializes the racism, and once black people can stop being so offended and "OH MY GOD, DID HE JUST SAY..." we'll make a lot of progress. Really, if everyone could just joke about these meaningless things like race, we'd be so much better off.

Queen of Ice is right, that is why many find is it justifiable to get mad when someone who isn't black says it.

Me personally, I decide on the manner of which it is said.

Me and my friends, which is a diverse group, even though the majority of us are black. My non-black friends still say it and we don't care cause they know the difference between nigga and nigger. Plus we all say racist things out of fun, merely just joking around. And none of it will bother us in the slightest, because we are all good friends and like I said, we are joking around.

But... If we are to be out in public and someone decided to join in on fun and say something racist, we would get upset. Because we don't know them, it wouldn't matter if they were joking or not.

So its not that standards change for different races, it just changes from person to person. But, it just so happens that a majority of black people feel the same way.

Does the standard for racism change among the races?

White men are discriminated against when it comes to affirmative action. I'm a Native American and as such I was offered a lot of different advantages growing up, especially throughout high school. I thought it was the stupidest thing. If we're shooting for equality, why not treat me like any other student rather than some "poor native kid from the reserve who needs help getting through school.". Why weren't other kids being offered these same benefits? I also saw it in the military.The instructors pushed two guys of obvious ethnic decent and several women who had no business being there. It's big reverse discrimination these days. Especially woman against men.

Can you persecute a race for past actions (eg. African-Americans "bullying" Caucasians for past of slavery)?

No. No one took any land from me personally. No one enslaved me personally. Nor did I do the same to anyone else. I will judge others based on their actions now. Not what their ancestors did in the past. It is largely irreverent. Should I discriminate against everyone who lived in the fertile crescent during the rise of civilization? They had an overwhelming advantage in the rate at which they could produce food which afforded their civilizations greater success. They had an advantage my ancestors did not and it affects me in a meaningful way to this day. The answer is "of course not!" That's how absurd that notion is.

Can you use racist remarks as a self-defense mechanism against racism?

Talk is cheap. People can throw slanderous remarks at me all day. Call me a chug, chief, gas-huffer. I don't care. No one should.

If I'm being caused tangible harm, say I'm denied a job based solely on my racial background, then I take exception and I would meet that kind of racism with action rather than talk.

I think I have to agree with Queen Of Ice too. Rights for black men and women, really for any non-white race in America, is relatively new and people tend to forget that. They tend to forget that racism still exists and with so many people out there who have to experience racism in some shape or form it becomes harder for people of color to forgive and forget.

I'm a victim of racism myself, I try and I try to do as Queen Of Ice said and just joke about it, but I find it hard when I meet new people, white people especially, not to expect some kind of discrimination because of who I am personally or when they learn that my parents are an interracial couple.

And yes, there are differing standards. Non-white students were almost always singled out as troublemakers even if everyone involved were of different races, it sucked, nobody really cared except those of us who got in trouble.

Wow. Honestly, I don't believe in 'reverse-racism.' It's, um, still racism, and why are we attaching the word reverse to it, when, you know, the original word conveys the exact same meaning. I will say I've lived a well-sheltered live, and have never lives in areas that are highly diverse. The most diverse area I've lived in you where either Mexican, or White, or one of the very, very rare people of other races.

I will say however that there are different standards held on different races, and that racism still exists today. However.

I think it's stupid.

Where I grew up you weren't defined by your race, so much as you were by your cultural background. There were those of German descent, and those of Irish and Scots-Irish descent and a small smattering of other, no Asians or Hispanics I can think of. In the entire county, there were maybe five black family lines.

It was very isolated there, and my generation wasn't particularly racist, though we knew our grandparents were, and in some cases our own parents. What the area suffered from was xenophobia. If your grandparents didn't graduate with their grandparents, you would always be an outsider, even if you had grown up with them and spent time with them since pre-school.

Xenophobia is a fear of other cultures, and while I am not racist, and have a mixed group of friends, there are other cultures that I do fear, though I give many cultures a large chance. I've been judged too often for how I sound, and how I look to not give others a chance.

I could easily go on, but I'll forbear boring you with examples. Suffice to say, while I have no problems with many Caucasian cultures, or Asian cultures, or even, really, the few actually African cultures I have encountered (these being born in Africa and started there), there are two cultures that frighten me enough that I have been informed I have racist reactions.

These are the Slavic cultures and the African-American gangster culture. I want you to look at how specific I was with the second one. The Caucasian gangster cultures have generally treated me alright, to my face, though I know perfectly well they were rude little brats behind my back, but the African-American Gangster Culture treated me like crap, no matter what skin color said member of that culture is. I only call it African-American because it started in the African American community and moved out.

It frightens me greatly, and when I see someone who appears of that culture I react wrongly. However they react just as wrong as I do.

Even our census forms are poorly worded when it comes down to it. Asian. African-American. Native American. White. Wow, wait what?

To para-phase one of the silly little rednecks I grew up with. "They get all them fancy words, and we get White!" Woah. Way to maintain a standard. Frankly, we're all shades of brown. Black and White are shades, yes? They can be shades of brown too. More than that, we are all human and all deserve to be treated the same.

Lately, I have seen news articles complaining about a scholarship whose main two standard are that you must be a white male. They are being sued for discrimination. However, there are a number of scholarships where you must be a woman, or African-American, or of a specific provable descent in order to receive the award. Is that right?

Is it right to lock someone out of an opportunity because he or she is not the right color, gender, age, sexual orientation, or height or weight?

Well. No. Of course not.

But it happens. Most of the members of my generation that I speak to are not racist. Our children will likely be less racist. Eventually, asking race won't be done, and it really won't matter. But I understand that for the African American culture the scars are very close to the surface still. They're grandparents tell them horror stories. They're parents do as well. I understand. My mom confessed in school she didn't even know she had black neighbors until she was asked by a teacher to look around and see. That was in my mom's generation and she would be 57 now if she were alive. She was fourteen when asked.

How many people are in they're forties in your neighborhood? They might remember too.

The point is racism isn't just against one race, and currently there are differing standards, entirely because there are Different Cultures. It's not a matter of skin color, it's a matter of how you were raised. Frankly, I get insulted when people refer to me by the color of my skin, whether on a form or otherwise, and I'm Scots-Irish-Norwegian. Above all that, I'm an American though, and would rather you refer to me as that, because racism exists, and because I have blond hair and blue eyes, to someone out there, I am the devil.

In my life time I've seen that out of all the different races on this planet the one that have the most racial slurs thrown their way are white people. Now I'm not saying that racism isn't there for the other races but the racism is taken extremly lightly tword white people more than anything. Honestly how many times have you seen the white guy get made fun of or made the bad guy in movies. Barbershop 2, the only white guy in that movie was a show boater and quit cause he wasn't getting enough attention. Spike Lee movie's, there is always some white guy that is actually saying "Look at the black guy, I bet he is going to steal something." Plus in today's world almost all jobs take "minorities" over white men or women because that is one of the first things they have to look at, I know that things like post office have to do that. I'm just saying that out of my whole life the most racism I have seen is twords the suposed biggest racist there are.

Those are both bad examples and I completely disagree with you.

flysociety wrote:Those are both bad examples and I completely disagree with you.

As do I.

I find it very silly in general when white people complain about racism; there are very few cases where it is extreme enough to warrant attention.

The whole, "Oh, minorities get all the jobs because they're minorities and it's not fair to white people." thing is ridiculous. Look at all the top earning CEOs, businessmen, etc. Look at the people who are high up in high-paying jobs. They're mostly white. Look at the unemployment rate. Who is often out of a job? Rarely is it a white person. Look at education. Who is most likely to get a quality education and thus be given the opportunity to excel in life? White people. There are actual statistics to back those statements and that prove that minorities have a tougher time in general. They are deserving of an opportunity to better themselves, and, at least for now, the best way we as a country can help people occasionally affects white people. White people are by no means hard up for work. I could understand maybe if there were this huge problem where white people cannot get a job, but in fact they are doing quite well and not only get jobs, but the best jobs (from a financial standpoint anyway).

That a white guy is a bad guy in a comedic movie and is being used (most likely satirically) to display a stereotype (of how negatively some white people think of black people mind you) is not nearly as bad as you're making it out to be.

When do you see your average white guy getting beaten to death for being white? Have white people been lynched, enslaved, or burned alive while people's families had a picnic around them? Boohoo, little Johnny got called the "white kid" at school for being white. Little Tyrone got shot for being black. And little Jeff never even got the chance to have an education because he comes from a poor black family in a ghetto.

Even in modern times, where extreme racism still exists it is almost always coming from a white person and directed at minorities. To say that white people have it the worst is ridiculous. They are (and have always been), barring the very rare extreme case, at worst the butt of a joke.

Minority races are disproportionately impoverished. People don't need help because they're minorities, people need help because they are impoverished. A white man struggling to support his family deserves a job more than an equally qualified black woman whose husband already makes enough to support a lavish lifestyle.

Sciamancer wrote:Minority races are disproportionately impoverished. People don't need help because they're minorities, people need help because they are impoverished. A white man struggling to support his family deserves a job more than an equally qualified black woman whose husband already makes enough to support a lavish lifestyle.

No one deserves a job for being poor or for being a minority. The person that is better at the job "deserves" it.

However, everyone also deserves a chance. The reason we don't always hold true to the "most qualified individual gets it" standard when it comes to minorities vs. white people is because for the most part it is minorities that are impoverished and stuck in the poverty cycle, and this is the only way we can manage to help level the playing field until we start working on better education. The point is not to hand out jobs to needy people. The point is to help people better their lives for their future generations so that we can stop factoring race into the equation at all.

And while the situation you've brought up would be unfortunate, it is highly unlikely and a very rare occurrence. What job would a middle class black woman who doesn't need to work and an impoverished white man both be applying for? Odds are if there's a poor white man applying, his competition is another poor person. Again, it is very unfortunate that the white man would be put in a situation where he does not receive a job, but the statistics prove that he and his children have a better opportunities for education, employment, etc., whereas the poor black man is likely the product of a family that's been trapped in poverty, a bad neighborhood, and terrible school systems. Again, racial equality is relatively new, even though it doesn't seem like it. These people have not gotten the opportunities that white men have had for years upon years. This is our way of helping them play "catch-up", if you will. The (relatively few) white people affected by this are an unfortunate byproduct of our attempt to undo centuries of discrimination.

It's a pretty common thing, nowadays. It's easy to explain; inequality.

No matter how much people want you to believe it, the world is not equal. And people are selfish pigs. For every person who truely believes people should be equal, there are going to be nine others who use it to improve their lot in life. Look at the amount of women who can claim priority, even when commiting the acts, in domestic disputes. Or women who will be allowed to claim shorter sentences 'because I'm a mother'. How many times in pop-culture will you see people go up in arms for one thing (For example, Las Plagas tribals in Resident Evil 5 because it was tribal Africans, but won't mention a word about portraying Spanish as all dirty peasants who want to murder you, all dressed like something out of Borat), or people who will raise a fuss for a white comedian saying something, but will say nothing about Carlos Mernendez (I think his name is), who quite literally pulls his eyes tight and talks about murdering children for not becoming doctors, and 'we all do this because we have small penis' in the most -racist- Chinese impersonation I've ever seen. Or how a show like Family Guy will portray all Christians as mental, book-burning madmen and all rednecks as stereotypically as possible. Some people are 'acceptable targets' in media, and some arn't. People want their cake, and to eat it; people who say they believe in equality for women, but will throw a fit when a man hits a woman in a fight, because they truely believe women are a 'fairer sex' who need to be coddled.

One I've never understood is, especially when it comes to job, is why a sexuality and race section is even included in forms. Wouldn't you think that equality means that those would be be a misnomer? Why does it matter?

Even in modern times, where extreme racism still exists it is almost always coming from a white person and directed at minorities. To say that white people have it the worst is ridiculous. They are (and have always been), barring the very rare extreme case, at worst the butt of a joke.

I lawled. I love that this entire discussion has so quickly devolved, as it usually does. I guess this is ignoring things such as the Caribbean and the Middle East, where homosexuals are murdered and executed for being what they are? Where Jamaican law constantly looks the other way 'if it's a white guy being robbed and killed'? Where Chinese cheer and destroy Japanese businesses trying to kick them out of their country? Where West German people beat and abuse East Germans for being in their 'side' of the country? Where Chinese are racist against other Chinese, for coming from another province of them?

Suck it up. People are bastards. White, black, Asian, Martian. A good portion of the world are racist, and the internet and the wide availability of information make it pretty hard now to hide just how blatently intolerent hundreds upon thousands of people are against each other.

And lets not forget some of the stupid stories I've seen papers print. A recent survey over here in England pointed out that the black population is suffering from 55% unemployment, which is a horrid, horrid thing, compared to the 35% unemployment for whites, which isn't bad. This is ignoring the fact that the black population in the article mentioned is about 700k, compared to the white population which is -far- higher, meaning that 35%? Yeah, that's a Hell of a lot more black people in employment than native English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish.

A white person stuck in a multi-generational cycle of poverty doesn't have a better shot at education and employment than a black person stuck in a multi-generational cycle of poverty, now does he? There are more cases of black people being stuck in this cycle because when all the slaves got freed, they were all essentially broke. Segregation and commonplace racism did not help this, obviously. But a black man being stuck in the poorhouse because his family had been discriminated against a few generations back isn't any different than a white man being stuck in the poorhouse because his father was a drunk lazy asshole. Either way, it isn't that person's fault. Either way, they have the same power to do something about: not much, unless they have an incredible talent that makes them lots of money.

Vanity Evolved wrote:

Even in modern times, where extreme racism still exists it is almost always coming from a white person and directed at minorities. To say that white people have it the worst is ridiculous. They are (and have always been), barring the very rare extreme case, at worst the butt of a joke.

I lawled. I love that this entire discussion has so quickly devolved, as it usually does. I guess this is ignoring things such as the Caribbean and the Middle East, where homosexuals are murdered and executed for being what they are? Where Jamaican law constantly looks the other way 'if it's a white guy being robbed and killed'? Where Chinese cheer and destroy Japanese businesses trying to kick them out of their country? Where West German people beat and abuse East Germans for being in their 'side' of the country? Where Chinese are racist against other Chinese, for coming from another province of them?

The things you brought up are entirely unrelated. I was talking about the issue of race in the United States and that the previous poster's idea that the average white male is the most discriminated against was ridiculous. Of course there are a variety of other issues around the world, but that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Suck it up.

What?

People are bastards. White, black, Asian, Martian. A good portion of the world are racist, and the internet and the wide availability of information make it pretty hard now to hide just how blatently intolerent hundreds upon thousands of people are against each other.

Again, this has no relevance to what I was saying or the previous discussion.

And lets not forget some of the stupid stories I've seen papers print. A recent survey over here in England pointed out that the black population is suffering from 55% unemployment, which is a horrid, horrid thing, compared to the 35% unemployment for whites, which isn't bad. This is ignoring the fact that the black population in the article mentioned is about 700k, compared to the white population which is -far- higher, meaning that 35%? Yeah, that's a Hell of a lot more black people in employment than native English/Irish/Welsh/Scottish.

Again, I was talking about the average white man in America, sorry if that was unclear to you. There was no need to quote me in making your point.

I'm not saying I disagree with you or that anything you said was necessarily wrong, I just don't understand why I was quoted is all. You sound really angry like you're arguing with someone - just wanted to make sure it's not me.

@Sciamancer: And we try to help those poor white people, too. It's just our government is a bit more understanding of beaten, killed, and enslaved ancestors than drunk, lazy, asshole ones. Don't say it like poor white people don't get any help. It's just that with the higher rates for minorities and women, as they have been discriminated against for so long, they get a bit of priority as we try to equalize the country.