I know, I know. Religion is so controversial, and cliche to talk about. But I have an honest question here, that doesn't exactly involve the questioning of faith, or anything else.

Many religions try to prove that one should follow certain views on how everything came into existance by pleading for people to blindly follow opinionated subjects. They expect people to base their way of life and their purpose, and objectives in life on the said religion, whatever the religion may be.

Others who don't follow a religion, such as atheists follow scientific views on life, because science has actually introduced many theories that are backed up by some facts. I don't believe in religion, but I do not follow the scientific views on things because science is not in existance to be what created life.

Besides those classifications of those who have faith and those who believe certain facts under the scientific field, there are some who think that the ability to comprehend the supreme event(s) that led to creation of everything is far beyond human grasp.

But what if the existance...What if whatever created us and all that is, is a compilation of all of the above? I'm not saying there is a higher power, and I'm not saying science is correct. What if there is some..Superior entity, rather it is some supernatural being or just a mixture of gasses and such in space?

Now, I'm sure this probably doesn't make sense to anyone, honestly I barely can understand the concept. But that brings us back to what has been previously mentioned about the inevitable human failure in understanding and comprehending life.

Before I ask, I'd like to let everyone know that I have no exact opinions on this subject, just some minor thoughts of which have been clouding my mind lately and I've just been wanting to get them out so I'd be able to move on.

Now on to the philosophy..

What are your views on this? Your opinions? Or perhaps you have actual facts that could help lead to a...Philisophical revolution or something? Please, feel free to share; speak your mind for what it's worth. Do you have any extra thought besides that of an inferior thinker?

(I ask that if you plan to reply with one sentence like "aduh...christianity rawks!" that you simply don't. You can use Gaia Online or something for that.)

Philosophy...Such a boring subject which one I feel the need to reply to. I personally am open to the context of religion just not entirely convinced by it. Which is to say that most religions believe in one "higher" deity that is against killing and all of that, yet look at the crusades. The gods didn't mind us killing each other then did they?

Especially with all that happens today, I find it hard to believe a god does exist yet am constantly shifted slightly on that notion due to the fact of "If so many people believe then surely it must be real, right?".

So until I find a positive answer I am going to stick to the fact that Jediism holds more believity right now, as the whole star wars force thing makes more sense than a god.

Good point. But can you elaborate as to why you are open to religion? Is it because you were born into a religious family? Or perhaps you are somewhat caught in some form of an internal conflict?

Personally I have never really understood why people are in any extent religious, save for the sense of security and a backup plan, and having something to rely on to make one feel like they are not alone when they physically are?

I'm not trying to be rude in any way, I am truely curious.

I understand, I was personally christened as a child for reasons unkown, my family doesn't appear to be christian and it was a serious waste of time to do it. But seeing as according to law I am one, I decided I would give it a go. Which led me to have my earlier opinion.

Good point; I was raised as a Christian as well. But I've obviously dropped that part of my life by now, after realzing it was a load of bullshit.

No disrespect to any Christians out there, but if you would actually read your Bible and consider the events in it from a logical point of view, then apply what is said as the word of 'God' to the current days, you'd surely recognize some faults of what it claims this 'God' character can do.

"When we blindly adopt a religion we become automatons; we cease to grow" - Unknown

I like that quote, it actually inspired me to really think about my former religion, and it led me to see things through different eyes, so to speak.

Ok, I think I might have some answers for you. Just for reference I am an existential agnostic; go figure.

Science is as much based on faith as any religion. Science is only viewed as concrete because certain outcomes can be reproduced time and time again. The funny thing is, just because you find something that is reproducible does not mean it will stay so indefinitely; if there is one thing you can learn about science throughout history is that it consists of discoveries of absolute truths, E.G. Newtonian Physics, that are later contradicted by "superior" discoveries, E.G Einstein's Relativity. Our view of the world, of the universe, is constricted by the absolutes we impose on it; the more we try to create absolute truths, the less we really understand. It's kind of a weird concept, but part of a true understanding would be recognizing the spontaneity of our existence.
Essentially, those "facts" are backed-up by just as much faith as any religion.

You are entitled to believe whatever you like, but one thing you must never do, though many do it regularly, is close your mind to possibilities. The narrow-minded are easily led and can be made to believe anything. I realized a while back, after reading some Bacharrius, that people are innately selfish. It's true, you will see the signs everywhere. But thats not relevant, some time later, I realized people are also Stupid. Why would you steal and kill, when if you gave some of what you had, people would become stronger and, forming a group, aid you in recovering more than what you spent on helping them? It is all very intuitive if you think.
Essentially, the people that believe so blindly in any religion are the sheep, those that are led.

Why would the ability to grasp any idea, even one as expansive as the big bang, be out of our capability? To indirectly quote the bible, "God made man in his image." Obviously we are not physically like him, or we would all be omnipotent, but likened to god in the nature of our minds. Thus if god can understand it, he created it, then we can too, given enough time. Like I said earlier, it is all a matter of what absolute truths you try to impart, choking your ability to see beyond the walls you have created. Given enough time I am sure we will understand quite a few things.

The concrete existence of god is a moot point. Arguably, he exists and he does not. I don't know, it is a matter of personal preference. What I like to think is that god is a member of a species that is beyond our comprehension who created us to amuse him, literally; How much fun is it when you are omnipotent and can do anything you want? The only logical answer to the eternal boredom any immortal would feel is to create beings with independent choice and thought, create something unpredictable. Maybe one day we will know for sure.

To dip into philosophy for a second, I want to talk about other dimensions. There are four measurable dimensions; length, width, height, and time. But what if there are others? The signs are all around us. Gravity is some inconceivable dimension bending and warping to the weight of a planet; imagine sliding down an angled tarp, only you are two-dimensional and can only perceive the downward attraction. Light bends, only not in any of the first three dimensions. Strange, huh? If we could ever "prove" these other dimensions, what are the consequences to the idea of a soul? Could our body just be a "protrusion", the part of an extra-dimension form that only "appears" three dimensional because our organs can only perceive that many dimensions.

Trying to make sense of anything in our universe is a tiresome mental task...*sigh*. I have lots more to say. What do you think?

As my father told me: "Everybody has to have faith." Religon is a way for people to get together, be open hearted and believe that things will get better. It is this optimism that keeps many religons are still thrive today. Think about it for a second: If someone dies, you have to know they are going to someplace good, right? You need someone who will always listen, and that is God, he's just a hand's clasp away, and never turns you down. Even the most lonliest person on Earth has his God to talk to, ask for another day living, ask for forgiveness when no one will forgive.

Atleast that's how I look at it, and I'm a pretty open minded person. I'm a strong agnostic, meaning I believe that there could/could not be a god or gods, and there will never be any evidence to support any side.

I want to point out that atheists don't necessarily follow science. All that is required to be an atheist is to not believe a diety exists, even if the reasoning behind it is non-scientific, like, "The Unicorns in my head told me that there is no God because they created the universe".

Science is just a tool, really. You use it to find out how stuff works. It isn't a good idea to consider it in opposition to religion, because plenty of religious people think that their beliefs are confirmed by science, or at least support the scientific method in general. Of course, there are the people that just believe whatever they want to believe with no regard to how things actually work based upon their beliefs, but that's called stupidity, and it can affect btoh the religious and non-religious.

I don't believe in a god because there is no real reason to believe in one, and many of the qualities assigned to god do not make sense when you look at reality. (Humans are the center of his creation but are ridiculously tiny in comparison to the universe, for example) This hypothetical supreme being runs into the first problem. There COULD be some kind of super duper supreme being out there that we can't comprehend. There also could be a magical candy land filled with unicorns that created the universe. Nothing that we have learned about the nature of the world so far would suggest that such a being is possible, but we could be missing something. If that something pops up, then we can consider the possibility of a super being. Until that happens, I don't like to make detailed hypotheses based on no evidence.

If God is real, and we continue on pursuing science, then eventually science will discover Him. Probably not today or tomorrow, or this century, but...

@ Creeds Concept: The concept is already within existance, I cannot remember the name for the life of me, but it went simialr to this;

The Big Bang, a central mass of energy, atoms, mass, whatever it may of been was the beginning of our Universe, as this Singularity expanded to what our universe is known as today, spreading matter, the general make up of creation, one could theorize that this central point was and could be, God. Some science-religious groups who consider the fact of the Big Bang singularity could argue it started with a single atom, the God Atom. Some religious believers could argue God is a part of us, he speaks to us and when we die we go to Heaven or Hell depending. What if say, Heaven and Hell are levels of matter? what if God truly is a part of is as every atom, molecule and so forth is technically descended from him, the Big Bang.

Now it is a topic which is controversial and could continue forever, but as an Aethiest and Scientist at heart I can also understand the principles of religion, what religion is to people and why they follow it, I know Science started with religion and that it may also be an answer or question to religion and vice versa, and as Alchemist said, if God truly exists (a lot of us are screwed...) then eventually Science will and can find him, regardless of the bounds of what reality may be, God created the Universe as he did (if he did.) and would have to be applied by the laws of that Universe as well.

Basically, we can find him, he can't hide

I would like to comment that no one had here had started the religions. You just can't group together all the religions they are all different from each other in one way or another. What seems to me is that because Christianity is the popular religion of the US, that is the main spokesperson for all religion, and because there are mistakes made and faulty religions Christianity gets the bad rap. Now as a Christian, I will come out and say that there are things that Christians have done wrong. As brought up before, the crusades was a very good example of this. But the Catholic Church has had a history of doing non-Biblical things. But let me address a few things.

1. Science and evolutionary beliefs are two totally different things. Science is the observance of scientific law and experimentation to confirm that law. Evolutionary ideas (including the Big Bang theory and other origin theories, which is still highly debated and far from a proven fact) are just ways of trying to explain the origin of the Universe. In that respect the Big Bang theory is nothing more then the book of Genesis for atheist. My opinion is that neither Creationism nor Evolution should be taught in schools, it is unfair for the education system to make up the minds of students for them whether it's Evolution or Creationism.

2. God can be found, or at least his signiture. The organic structure of life is one very loud testament to the fact there was a designer. If any one has a background in cellular biology knows that inside a single human cell is a system so complex that it rivals all our technology combined. Now if chance doesn't build an airplane, than how does chance build something so complex that it make the Space Shuttle look like a damp stick. Just think about it.

3.You can't call Christianity the bane of humanity (which some people do believe). It would be like saying all the scientific discoveries made by Newton, Lord Kelvin, and many of the first scientists were for nothing. Or saying that the aid given by Christian organizations to the Tsunami victims was evil. Christianity may have made mistakes in the past, but as a whole, Christians are the most loving and caring people in the world. They don't care if you're black, white, yellow, blue, gay, straight, disabled, orphaned, or anything else. A true Christian would help them either way with out stipulation, no strings attached. If they don't, then I apologize to you, what they did (or did not do) was not very Christ like.

I will finish something that I ponder sometimes. Would it be better to believe in God and do has he asked and then find out you were wrong, or to go through your life without believing and then find out you were wrong?

Conquerer_Man wrote:Christians are the most loving and caring people in the world. They don't care if you're black, white, yellow, blue, gay, straight, disabled, orphaned, or anything else. A true Christian would help them either way with out stipulation, no strings attached.

I'd love to agree with you, but the Bible that Christians so highly revere contradicts that statement. I seem to recall a certain pair of cities in the Old Testament... Sodom and Gomorah, wasn't it? One day, God decided to destroy both towns and everyone in it. Why would he do such a terrible thing? The people of this city happened to practice homosexuality. The Bible says that God condemns homosexuality as an abomination with no place in his kingdom. So, in order to obey the Bible (aka the "Word of God"), an orthadox Christian would not help a gay person and instead threaten them with hell fire unless they go straight.

Anyway, I won't turn this into a religious rant. My opinion concerning the topic, is that I really do not have one. As it was already stated, such philosophy cannot pssoibly be comprehended so why bother? The answer to the questions won't be common knowledge until long after we're all dead and buried so we (at this time) will never know. It sucks, majorly, but it is the harsh truth, I'm afraid.

Hunter in the Alley wrote:As my father told me: "Everybody has to have faith." Religon is a way for people to get together, be open hearted and believe that things will get better. It is this optimism that keeps many religons are still thrive today. Think about it for a second: If someone dies, you have to know they are going to someplace good, right? You need someone who will always listen, and that is God, he's just a hand's clasp away, and never turns you down. Even the most lonliest person on Earth has his God to talk to, ask for another day living, ask for forgiveness when no one will forgive.

I agree with you on one thing, at least, in that optimism is what keeps religions thriving. Almost all religions are sustained by the fear of death and the clinging hope of going someplace good when you die. If someone dies, they would of course want to go someplace good, but that is something they would have no control over. This hope can be a terrible thing when it affects the way you live, you change everything you are to follow guidelines (yes, guidelines... thats what I see the Bible as, guidelines to living life) that should prevent you from going to hell.

God may or may not always listen, depending on if he even exists. Who knows, some day, hundreds of years from now, we may find that we were just talking to ourselves, or we might actually find God. The 'God never turning you down' part though I cannot agree with. Religions often tell you not to be greedy and promote working to get what you want, and to be selfless. I have not read all of the Bible, but from what I have, I don't think God is the kind of guy to hand you everything you want.

The loneliest person on Earth CAN have his god to talk to, and he CAN ask for another day, and forgiveness... but instead of hoping his God can solve his problems, he should do things to help him live another day, and learn to forgive himself, so that others forgiveness isn't necessary.


I am not trying to bash you, Hunter, I just have my own opinions on what you said, please do not take it the wrong way.

Mozenrath wrote:

Conquerer_Man wrote:Christians are the most loving and caring people in the world. They don't care if you're black, white, yellow, blue, gay, straight, disabled, orphaned, or anything else. A true Christian would help them either way with out stipulation, no strings attached.

I'd love to agree with you, but the Bible that Christians so highly revere contradicts that statement. I seem to recall a certain pair of cities in the Old Testament... Sodom and Gomorrah, wasn't it? One day, God decided to destroy both towns and everyone in it. Why would he do such a terrible thing? The people of this city happened to practice homosexuality. The Bible says that God condemns homosexuality as an abomination with no place in his kingdom. So, in order to obey the Bible (aka the "Word of God"), an orthodox Christian would not help a gay person and instead threaten them with hell fire unless they go straight.

That is not so Moznerath. There are a few things wrong with what you said. Let us follow this train of thought as if the bible were correct.

1. Christians are to be Christ like. Christ gave to commandments in the new testament that we as gentiles are to follow. The first is to believe in Him, that he came to perish for our sins. The second is that we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. That is not "lover you neighbor unless he is homosexual," or "unless he is black," or "unless he is whatever,". There is no condition to our neighborly love we are supposed to show to others. I understand that there are Christians who aren't very Christ like, and they don't treat their neighbors as they would treat themselves but that is not the norm.

2. Sodom and Gomorrah weren't just condemned for their sins of sodomy and homosexuality but for others as well. Sodom was not a town full of homosexuals, but a town full of rapists and murderers. In those passages, the angels sent to pull Lot out of Sodom were actually accosted by the citizens of Sodom. These Sodomites wanted the angels so bad they threatened to destroy Lot's home to get them. Lot actually tried to stop them by offering his virgin daughters but they didn't take them. In the end the angles had to blind their attackers in order to get Lot and his family out of there. Sodom wasn't just a town full of homosexuals, it was a town so rife with sin that nothing was sacred, including life and innocence.

3. God did not destroy Sodom and Gomorrah with a happy heart. He loves his creation, and the fact that we drove ourselves away from him breaks his heart. If there had been some other way to save Sodom and Gomorrah from their sins and pull them out of that life style he would have, but they were so entrenched in their ways that they would not change. He had to destroy them to keep them from destroying others.

Well that just serves him right for giving us that gosh-darned free will, then. Some choice: love me or spend an eternity being tortured in hell. If that's his idea of free will then I say he himself can burn in hell because that's just sadistic and wrong.

My favorite answer when I hear people arguing about how the world came to be is, "Who cares, isn't it wonderful that it did?" I believe that humanity are the gods of the earth, we make everything the way we want it to be, we just don't trust ourselves, and rightly so. A higher being is there for us to blame our own faults on, and to thank for all the blessings we procure. I'm not saying that there isn't a higher power, I am just too impressed with life and beauty and love and all the vastness of the skies to accept that something didn't think it all out.

People often get annoyed when I say that I don't care how the world was created, or how long it took, those people need to see that the world just is, and enjoy it. Gather ye rosebuds while ye may, Carpe Diem, I feel like Horace.

I sound sort of like a hippie, I'm okay with it. Why would anyone take away another persons happiness, just because they get it from believing in a happily ever after? It's like saying, "Cinderella dies, not a happily ever after, because I believe that the story has too many holes in it, therefore, I can't let you be happy."

When it comes to Morals, the one loophole in my "Everything is wonderful" scenario, I figure we have some moral compass, overall, or else morals would have changed more drastically, sure promiscuity and sexuality change like the tides, but freedom and human life have remained modestly sacred, if anything, that is why we need a higher being, for all our glory, humanity can't follow its own rules, the enslavement of ancient Rome has been fixed, all eternity we've been fixing the mistakes we've made, and making new mistakes...

My own views lead to either the Utopia of Island, or the Dystopia of Brave New World.
The future is something to be feared, and hopefully charted out to avoid pain, but again this takes away from all the joys of a star kissed dew melting away on a summer day...

Hippie talk, I know...

I myself believe in Odinism. Although my people were persecuted in the middle ages, I know there are nice and open christians out there. For me there are the friendly christian, the hate preaching fundamentalists, catholics and the other but evil cotholics. But there is free will out there and a religion I dont believe in will not be forced upon me.
I am a person who is gay, polytheistic and open. I dont really believe the world came from a tree named Yggdrasil. But that it was created by a higher power through the big bang.