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[SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing]

5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. 6 The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air—for I am grieved that I have made them.

Of the entire population of the earth, only eight people were good: Noah, his three sons, and their wives. By causing the flood God saved righteousness, and also made a promise to Noah never to do so again.

20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous 21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD. [e] 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: "Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked? 24 What if there are fifty righteous people in the city? Will you really sweep it away and not spare [f] the place for the sake of the fifty righteous people in it? 25 Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge [g] of all the earth do right?"
26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will spare the whole place for their sake."
27 Then Abraham spoke up again: "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, though I am nothing but dust and ashes, 28 what if the number of the righteous is five less than fifty? Will you destroy the whole city because of five people?"
"If I find forty-five there," he said, "I will not destroy it."
29 Once again he spoke to him, "What if only forty are found there?"
He said, "For the sake of forty, I will not do it."
30 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak. What if only thirty can be found there?"
He answered, "I will not do it if I find thirty there."
31 Abraham said, "Now that I have been so bold as to speak to the Lord, what if only twenty can be found there?"
He said, "For the sake of twenty, I will not destroy it."
32 Then he said, "May the Lord not be angry, but let me speak just once more. What if only ten can be found there?"
He answered, "For the sake of ten, I will not destroy it."
33 When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham, he left, and Abraham returned home.

God was very willing to let the city be if only 10 people were still good. When His messengers arrived in Sodam, a mob of men tried to rape them, but a man named Lot protected them and so God sent him, his daughters, and his wife away from the city.

God does NOT hate gay people. God loves everybody, the only thing he hates are the sins that people commit. There is no way that a perfect father cannot love his child.

Before the first sin there was no evil in the world. None. Everything was perfect. There was only one rule they couldn’t break, but they did, and that became the beginning of a sinful nature in mankind that compels everyone to do wrong. You don’t need to teach children to lie or steal; they figure it out on their own.

[Village Alchemist]

Anyway, I consider myself a logical person too, so when I consider the laws of nature and physics that state that energy cannot be created from nothing by natural means, that means that all energy had to come from somewhere not natural. And for me that solves my "Is there a God" problem. Yes, there is some form of inteligent being that set existance in motion.

How can you know that such a being would be intelligent?

I digress. Anyway, I remember learning a lot from that class about world religions and how a lot of what they teach doesn't add up.

Very little in Christianity adds up properly, either.

I'm not sure who said it (I'm just a fountain of sourceless information right?), but a quote that I've always liked is "If you want to get rich, start a religion".

That would be L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the Church of Scientology.

And there are a lot of religions out there where their founders, and their immediate followers, have gotten REALLY rich, or REALLY powerful REALLY quickly. In the beginning Christian church there was no promise of status, fortune, or prestige. Their nation hated them (Jews), their government hated them (Romans), and they got victimised, tyranised, and terrorised everywhere they went for nothing more than the fact that they believed in something with such a passion with nothing more than the words of a man that they saw die and come back to life after three days who said that he was the only way to God and promised eternal life in Heaven, forgivness of the evil in their hearts, and a purpose to live for. That's something of a reason to believe what they died for, and most of the reason I want to.

It's not that I doubt the honesty or goodness of the founders of Christianity, but I doubt their correctness. Their claims are too extraordinary for me to believe without extraordinary evidence backing them.

[Aniihya]

That is the typical way a christian tries to prove something. Even if your god saw sins, he is still flawed for making those sins happen. If I would try to prove something it would be like this:
"Shad-ab usur adad akh-ur en-a dad ea u´bab mar-dukh esh nab." Marduk will give you luck if you learn to trust in pride. -Had-u-abshar (Writer of King Satarana-am)
You hear that I should be proud of myself and others to achieve luck. In this case luck means happiness. The gods want people to achieve happiness, courage, trust and friendship. Being strictly religious and greedy for more followers is not what its all about.

[Gautama]

Yes that sounds bad, but we used the definition "a religion or sect considered to be FALSE, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader" (Dictionary.com "Cult" 6) like in how we believe that every religion other than Christianity to be false and as such it was basically a world religions class.

(tl;dr Using the language of your audience avoids bias; part of this is avoiding words like true and false.)

So here you have a starting definition of cults as “false”. That is hardly the best way to go about getting an unbiased view of the subject matter.

I had a political philosophy class sort of like that. All political systems that did not fall back on either neo-Kantian principles, or on utilitarianism, were glossed over as worthless. Basically, pass/fail was dependent on using liberal arguments.

With a bit of geekiness, I think I can avoid this obstacle, in both cases. If you follow the pragmatic approach and replace “true/false” with “warranted/unwarranted assertion”, you could say that from the perspective of a Christian, all other religions are filled with unwarranted assertions. In other words, when your audience is Christians, you will not be justified in making claims from another religion. It doesn't have the bite of the word "false", but it reveals prejudice nicely. So you see how little you are losing without the word "false", I'll explain the parallel case of liberalism.

From the perspective of a liberal, all theocracies, tyrannies, Communist nations, and other illiberal governments are upheld by unwarranted assertions. Things like the subjugation of women simply cannot be justified to a liberal. Their tolerance is not tolerance of everything. As I said, "unwarranted assertion" doesn’t have the bite of the word “false”, but it reveals prejudice nicely.

Anyway, I remember learning a lot from that class about world religions and how a lot of what they teach doesn't add up.

What does it take for a religion to “add up”? Is your argument for the First Cause enough?

[Lukisod]

If god does exist, he's a very curious creature. I offer the following for you to "add up". I use "He" in this to refer to God. I'm fully away god is transcendent of gender. I just find it easier to refer to god as him.

A perfect being wouldn't create an imperfect creation. That's a contradiction of terms. So we imply that god isn't perfect because he created us with full knowledge that we would be. He punishes us for our sins eternally after death, full well knowing he was the one who made us the way we are. Implies god is sadistic. So we would be worshiping a sadistic and imperfect being.

He also offers us sketchy proof of his existence, telling us to "Have faith" rather than being shown to our faces that he exists, which would be more conducive to us worshiping him, if that is what he wants from us. "Having faith." is something a con artist comes up with when he's at the end of his rope to provide real evidence.

Gods word was written down in numerous texts only to be mistranslated again and again, spawning splinter factions and endless debate about his message. Presumably he was the one who decided to confuse us by changing our language because "United we could achieve anything" Which could imply he was frightened of us and what we could achieve by building a tower. (Yet allowing us to fly to the moon and traverse our own solar system with probes.)

That's what doesn't add up to me. Call me Satan incarnate or something for questioning the absolution of god.

I'll give you this however, if you want to hedge your bets, worship god. If he does exist, you go to heaven. If he doesn't? it doesn't matter then. Your still dead.

Clarify this for me someone...
Didn't Buddha tell people not to worship him because he wasn't a god? I had a sense that Buddhism was the pursuit of not wanting anything.

[Dreaming Wolf]

Clarify this for me someone...
Didn't Buddha tell people not to worship him because he wasn't a god? I had a sense that Buddhism was the pursuit of not wanting anything.

Buddha presented an "idea" to the world, not a religion. There have been branched religion off of his ideas, but he was really only an extraordinary philosopher. The difference between him and any other "wise man" is that he actually learned through very harsh experience. He went from prince to peasant, peasant to enlightened.


As for my religion, well..... it can't be categorized. In fact, I have my own religion, it's called "my belief". Certainly no offense to anyone, but religions require that you pass on a certain set of qualities to other people, your friends, yourself even, and in return you must naturally shun other religions. This creates an atmosphere of "I'm right and your wrong", putting everybody at fault.

I believe that religion was never meant to happen. If there is a God, he/she doesn't want an organization, he/she simply wants people to understand..... again, to believe.

I take what I feel is needed from every religion and their texts. I never point fingers and claim to know it all, I only express my opinion as a small figure in a large universe. I suppose if you had to put me in a category I would rank closely with Buddhism, Wicca and Christianity, but a follower of none.

[SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing]

Ack, so many different people to talk to.

How can you know that such a being would be intelligent?

He'd have to be, I doubt that a rock or a... frog or something could have done it.

Very little in Christianity adds up properly, either.

Hmm, well I dissagree.

That would be L. Ron Hubbard, founder of the Church of Scientology.

Thank you.

It's not that I doubt the honesty or goodness of the founders of Christianity, but I doubt their correctness. Their claims are too extraordinary for me to believe without extraordinary evidence backing them.

If you don't doubt the honesty of the eye witnesses of Jesus' ressurection then how are their claims too extraordinary? Maybe it's just semantics but you're contradicting yourself.

Even if your god saw sins, he is still flawed for making those sins happen.

That doesn't help your argument at all. If that were true (it's not, but) then the same would apply to your gods as well. It's like I said before: God never made people sin, and He never will. Sin is a free choice for everyone who lives.

What does it take for a religion to “add up”? Is your argument for the First Cause enough?

Ok, maybe "add up" wasn't the right terminology right then, but I didn't want to get into the details because I don't remember it very well. I meant that asside from the stupid "they don't believe in God so they're wrong" stuff (which we WEREN"T tought), we learned about a lot of well documented and well sourced facts (biographical, historical, archeological) about many modern religions that contradict their teachings and their founders. Please don't ask for specifics, I really wish I had them for you but I don't.

If you follow the pragmatic approach and replace “true/false” with “warranted/unwarranted assertion”...

Well, to start off with I didn't name the class. Next off, a very, VERY high majority of the student body was Christian so I doubt anyone who took the class was offended if we said hinduism was false. Also, I think that anyone who would actually apply what you suggested would be hiding the true impact of what they had to say behind large words, intentianally or not.

A perfect being wouldn't create an imperfect creation. That's a contradiction of terms. So we imply that god isn't perfect because he created us with full knowledge that we would be.

God spent six days creating the universe and after each creation he called everything good. God did not create man with a sinful nature, man chose to have the inate capability to do evil when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knoledge of good and evil.

He punishes us for our sins eternally after death, full well knowing he was the one who made us the way we are.

People go to hell because they reject God. God offers an escape from the punishment that sin brings with it, which is eternal death.

He also offers us sketchy proof of his existence, telling us to "Have faith" rather than being shown to our faces that he exists, which would be more conducive to us worshiping him, if that is what he wants from us. "Having faith." is something a con artist comes up with when he's at the end of his rope to provide real evidence.

Thomas said the same thing. “I will not believe until I have seen Him and touched his wounds and put my hand in the whole in his side.” Guess what? Jesus showed up and told him to feel His wounds and put his hand in His side. After Thomas believed Jesus said, “You believe because you see, blessed is he who believes but does not see.”

As for the con artist comment: There is no evidence of trans-species in the fossil record. People are told by Darwinists that they just haven’t been found yet. They are telling evolutionists to have faith that their evidence will pull through in the end.

Firstly, why, if species have descended from other species by insensibly fine gradations, do we not everywhere see innumerable transitional forms? Why is not all nature in confusion instead of the species being, as we see them, well defined? 1

But, as by this theory, innumerable transitional forms must have existed, why do we not find them embedded in countless numbers in the crust of the earth? 2

Lastly, looking not to any one time, but to all time, if my theory be true, numberless intermediate varieties, linking closely together all the species of the same group, must assuredly have existed. 3

Why then is not every geological formation and every stratum full of such intermediate links? Geology assuredly does not reveal any such finely graduated organic chain; and this, perhaps is the most obvious and gravest objection which can be urged against my theory. 4

Gods word was written down in numerous texts only to be mistranslated again and again, spawning splinter factions and endless debate about his message.

Now THAT’S the oldest argument against the Bible. Take a look at The Dead Sea Scrolls. The Jews would painstakingly duplicate the scriptures and if three mistakes were made in the ENTIRE script it was burned and they would start over. The chances of getting horrible mistranslations were very slim. As for the new testament, you can get side by side comparisons of the original Greek versions and translated English versions. If you could read Greek that would be helpful.

Presumably he was the one who decided to confuse us by changing our language because "United we could achieve anything" Which could imply he was frightened of us and what we could achieve by building a tower.

God told the people of the earth to spread out and populate the earth. Instead, they stayed in one spot and built a tower so that they would never lose sight of the city. God said, alright, I’ll make it so that you HAVE to go and populate the earth. So he mixed up their language and they did.

I don’t think that you’re Satan incarnate any more than I think that I am.

And I give you this: If you’re right, then nothing happens. If you’re wrong... well... I’d be extra sure if I were you. If you are, then ok.

[Village Alchemist]

Ack, so many different people to talk to.

How can you know that such a being would be intelligent?

He'd have to be, I doubt that a rock or a... frog or something could have done it.

Ants are not intelligent, but they can build colonies. Robots are not intelligent, but they can build cars. (I'm not saying that God isn't intelligent. I'm saying He wouldn't have to be. It's just one of many areas where people seem to naturally assume that God would be like us.)

What does it take for a religion to “add up”? Is your argument for the First Cause enough?

Ok, maybe "add up" wasn't the right terminology right then, but I didn't want to get into the details because I don't remember it very well. I meant that asside from the stupid "they don't believe in God so they're wrong" stuff (which we WEREN"T tought), we learned about a lot of well documented and well sourced facts (biographical, historical, archeological) about many modern religions that contradict their teachings and their founders. Please don't ask for specifics, I really wish I had them for you but I don't.

You mean like how, in the Bible, major "good guy" figures are repeatedly referenced as having multiple wives, whereas modern Christians treat polygamy as a sin? Stuff like that?

Very little in Christianity adds up properly, either.

Hmm, well I dissagree.

I don't:
Kings 8:26 "Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."
Chronicles 22:2 says "Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign..."

Samuel 6:23 says "Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death."
Samuel 21:8 says "But the king took...the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul..."

Samuel 31:4-6 says "...Saul took a sword and fell upon it. And when his armourbearer saw that Saul was dead and...died with him. So Saul died..."
Samuel 21:12 says "...the Philistines had slain Saul in Gilboa."

Gen 6:20 says "Of fowls after their kind and of cattle....two of every sort shall come unto thee..."
Gen 7:2,3 says "Of every clean beast thou shall take to thee by sevens...Of fowls also of the air by sevens..."

Gen 32:30 states "...for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
John 1:18 states, "No man hath seen God at any time..."

Lev 11:20-21: "All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you."
Fowls walk on two legs.

Matt 4:8: " Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them."
Unless the world is flat, or this is some sort of wacky metaphorical mountain, or he had a bunch of really big mirrors, no-one can just see all the kingdoms of the world just by climbing a mountain.

And then there are things which can’t be summed up in just simple quotes: How only two of the New Testament’s four “gospels” mention Jesus being born to a virgin. None of the authors of the Old Testament seem to be able to agree on what an angel looks like. And the angels in the Old Testament are a destructive force, while in the New Testament, all the do is sing and deliver messages. If these books cannot even be internally consistant, how can they be a reliable source of Truth?

[SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing]

The universe is more sophisticated than an anthill and SLIGHTLY more intracate than a car.

Read Here for an Answer to the Polygamy thing

Very little in Christianity adds up properly, either.

Hmm, well I dissagree.

I don't:

I do.

1: Look those verses up, they both say he was 22.

2: 2 Samuel 21:8 says that her name was Merab, not Michal.

3: He killed himself after he was fatally wounded by a philistine arrow.

4: God is making a general statement first and then clarifying a few verses later.

5: John is talking about the Christ seeing God in a way that no ordinary man could; the true, pure pressence of God. Jacob was wrestling with a "man" whom some think might have been Jesus himself, or it might have been an internal struggle instead of a literal struggle.

6: Look up the verse, it says insects. It's talking about beetles and other bugs that people shouldn't eat.

7: There were very supernatural things going on there.

On the contrary, the bible specifically states that the earth is round centuries before anyone else said so.
Isaiah 40:22 He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

A few other scientific facts in the bible that were not discovered until relatively recently (All taken directly from This Site:

Leviticus 17:11 (written 3000 years ago): "For the life of the flesh is in the blood."

The Scriptures declare that blood is the source of life. Up until 120 years ago, sick people were "bled", and many died because of the practice. We now know that blood is the source of life. If you lose your blood, you will lose your life.

Leviticus 15:13 (written 3000 years ago): "And when he that has an issue is cleansed of his issue; then he shall number to himself seven days for his cleansing, and wash his clothes, and bathe his flesh in running water, and shall be clean."

The Bible said that when dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water. Up until 100 years ago doctors washed their hands in a basin of still water, resulting in the death of multitudes. We now know that doctors must wash their hands under running water. The Encyclopedia Britannica documents that in 1845, a young doctor in Vienna named Dr. Ignaz Semmelweis was horrified at the terrible death rate of women who were dying after giving birth in hospitals. As many as 30% of those giving birth died. The Doctor noted that doctors would examine the bodies of those who had died, then, without washing their hands, go straight to the next wards and examine expectant mothers. This was their normal practice, because the presence of microscopic diseases was unknown. Doctor Semmelweis insisted that doctors wash their hands before examinations, and the death rate immediately dropped down to 2%.

Job 26:7 (written 3500 years ago): "He stretches out the north over the empty place, and hangs the earth upon nothing."

Less than 200 years ago, through the advent of massive telescopes, science learned about the great empty space in the north. Also the Bible claimed that the earth freely floated in space, but science then thought that the earth sat on a large animal. We now know that the earth has a free float in space.

(The first scientist having this understanding would appear to be Copernicus around 1500. Examples of Scientific Accuracy in the Bible By David Pyles)


Job 28:25 To establish a weight for the wind, And apportion the waters by measure.

The fact that air has weight was proven scientifically only about 300 years ago. The relative weights of air and water are needed for the efficient functioning of the world’s hydrologic cycle, which in turn sustains life on the earth.

Psalm 19:4-6: "In them has He set a tabernacle for the sun, which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoices as a strong man to run a race. His [the sun's] going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof."

Bible critics have scoffed at these verses, saying that they teach that the sun revolves around the earth. Science told them that the sun was stationary. Then they discovered that the sun is in fact moving through space at approximately 600,000 miles per hour. It is traveling through the heavens and has a "circuit" just as the Bible says. It is estimated that its circuit is so large, it would take 200 million years to complete one orbit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT: Only two of the gospels mention the virgin birth because those are the only two that mention Jesus’ birth at all. Who says angels have to look like the same thing? Or that they have a constant form? And as far as what angels do, they do whatever God wants them to do.

[Aniihya]

SlowlyCrazy: My gods couldnt prove flaws because the gods have said there is a reason for good and evil. Without evil there cant be good and without good there cant be evil.
Like Naplana-am, King of the Third Dynasty of Ur said: "Some people are so blind they dont see the truth."
You think like an actual christian: that if other gods make mistake they are flawed, but if your god makes mistakes then he isnt flawed.
My gods didnt make mistakes, because sin is not a mistake, its a trait that is needed to know where good is. Destiny guides us, we cant change it, its all planned.
You and other christians are brainwashed by clerics to believe christianity is the only true religion. My religion allows the belief of second religions that have some ties with my religion: like Zoroastrianism, Asatru, Bahai, Hinduism, Buddhism. Actually the only exceptions are Christianity, Islam and Satanism (satan was an idea of the christian church to make people fear damnation and pay money to the church).

[SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing]

You and other christians are brainwashed by clerics to believe christianity is the only true religion.

Careful now, this whole thing has been very flame free so far so let's try to keep it that way.

You sound very medieval if you don't mind me saying. I haven't been brainwashed by a cleric, I have made my own choices after weighing the facts carefully and making an intellectual choice.

You think like an actual christian: that if other gods make mistake they are flawed, but if your god makes mistakes then he isnt flawed.

Isn't that whay you just said about your own gods? You've said that both your gods and my God have done the exact same thing: created sin in the world. I have already said that that isn't true for my God but let's run with that for a moment. If what they both did was the same, why is my God the one that's flawed?

God did not create sin.

God CANNOT create sin.

God is a good, lawful being and to think he could do anything contrary to that nature is illogical. God did not create rape, murder, or theft; the only sin He was even close to originating was rebellion when He told Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that was first done by Satan when he rebelled against God. God set up rules like the ten commandments after a long period of time, after the sins were all practiced very much.

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

EDIT: Satan is kind of a crux of Christianity. Satan is within the entire Bible ranging from the begining of history to the prophetic future. We couldn't have made him up just to get a little money.

[Aniihya]

Your god is flawed because sin came and he didnt intend to have sin in the world. The flaws of my gods are yet unproven since they intended to make humans that have the decision between good and bad. Only the demigods have proven evidence of flaws like Ereshkigal and Anshar.
And I was just saying you have been told christianity is the only true thing and believe it. That is brainwash. You are being told what you should do and think. You have to notice there are other religions and our religions cannot coexist until almost all monotheists recognize this.

[Lukisod]

God spent six days creating the universe and after each creation he called everything good. God did not create man with a sinful nature, man chose to have the inate capability to do evil when Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knoledge of good and evil.

God is a good, lawful being and to think he could do anything contrary to that nature is illogical. God did not create rape, murder, or theft; the only sin He was even close to originating was rebellion when He told Adam and Eve to not eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and that was first done by Satan when he rebelled against God. God set up rules like the ten commandments after a long period of time, after the sins were all practiced very much.

My point still stands that God created us imperfect then. God created the garden of Eden with the tree of knowledge in it. Why place such a blatant temptation? Assuming God knows everything he placed that tree there knowing Eve would take the apple. Created Lucifer knowing he would fall, come to earth as a serpent and tempt Eve successfully. Then with full knowledge of how events would turn out he punishes the two with suffering. If he were good and lawful he would not have made his creation capable of evil or even have temptation. It's a contradiction of his nature as you say.

Basically what I'm saying here is that God in the bible doesn't add up. The bible certainly makes some sense here as a story of resisting temptation. However I don't see why Adam and Eve would be denied crucial knowledge of what was good and what was evil. The Tree of Knowledge sounds to me like a story about how we should shun further knowledge and remain in ignorant bliss. But that's just my take on that particular story.

That's my biggest gripe really. I don't like the way people are dogmatic about their religious texts. The word is God and is unchanging as it is written down. I think a lot of the times we miss the point of the real message. Instead we try to read too far into it and end up believing that, for instance, this story must mean that gays are an affront to God. If it were the word of God, it would not be a historical account of things past. It would be more like the ten commandments. This is what you shall and shall not do to please me. No fluff.

On that note, The ten commandments say "Thou shall not murder." Killing is fine. We find it necessary for certain situations like self defense. Killing someone for no reason is not. And we figured this out on our own without the moral guidance of the divine. Would you want to be killed for no reason? Neither would I.

Thomas said the same thing. “I will not believe until I have seen Him and touched his wounds and put my hand in the whole in his side.” Guess what? Jesus showed up and told him to feel His wounds and put his hand in His side. After Thomas believed Jesus said, “You believe because you see, blessed is he who believes but does not see.”

As for the con artist comment: There is no evidence of trans-species in the fossil record. People are told by Darwinists that they just haven’t been found yet. They are telling evolutionists to have faith that their evidence will pull through in the end.

I concede the point. People have faith without religion.

But check your facts about trans-species fossils. Things have advanced in a hundred years since the book was written. Even if he is wrong, science will just reexamine the evidence and present a new theory. I'd like to point out that science isn't trying to disprove God. They just feel this explanation is more reasonable considering the current evidence. Bring forth evidence of God and you will get the theory of God.

Now THAT’S the oldest argument against the Bible. Take a look at The Dead Sea Scrolls. The Jews would painstakingly duplicate the scriptures and if three mistakes were made in the ENTIRE script it was burned and they would start over. The chances of getting horrible mistranslations were very slim. As for the new testament, you can get side by side comparisons of the original Greek versions and translated English versions. If you could read Greek that would be helpful.

I again concede the point. Meticulous translation of the scrolls. It doesn't mean what they translated was the word of God. See above.

[Village Alchemist]

I cede this debate to you, SlowlyCrazyIamGoing. I mean, you haven't converted me or anything, but you've thoroughly trumped me at debate.

[Trasthree]

Religion should not be real. If everybody didn't believe in any god, it'd fix all the world's problems.

[Pseudosyne]

Just to clear up one thing that I saw mentioned that I do have knowledge of: there have indeed been transitional fossils discovered. As such, the claim of Darwinists is no longer based on "faith" but actual physical evidence. A quick reference for these fossils can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tr ... al_fossils

[Ponats]

@Trasthree: I disagree, that is like saying two atheists would never fight. Religion is not to blame for the problems of the world, it is just another way to filter aggression and give excuse to an action.

I like what a Greek philosopher once said.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

This is quoted from Epicurus. One, the guy has Epic in the start of his name. Had to be legit! (Ends funny.)

He pulls up a good point. If a god existed, he would be malevolent in that sense. But the opposite is true. Good would also apply to the logical formula. But no matter how you go around it, if you look at a single omnipotent god... he or she wants to do evil to us as well as good.

Another case is the perfect god. It always bothers me when people say he is perfect. I don't think that could be remotely possible, as the logic of perfect is an opinion. If one person simply thought of God as not perfect, then thus would rule out of him/her being perfect. And according to Christan faith, Satan obviously doesn't think God perfect. That would mean 'He' is not perfect. God can be as perfect as much as a human can be normal.

No offense to anyone, but if those people who yell that even a Buddhist would go to hell... well I rather be in hell with the Buddhist then in heaven with an idiot. ^^

[Mid]

Er... you guys do understand that religion/s were made at different times to "fit" the needs of people? Ex of the order they were made in made (I might be off on the spiritual being first)

Spirital
Egyptian
Greek
Roman
Christianity

Personally I think religion = money, power & control. No, I don't believe in "the god/s" yet I do believe in life after death.

Now let me ask this... Why does "god" have gay men as a sin? Would it have something to do with how the Romans being "out" and proud? The same Romans who tortured Christians just because they disapproved?

Do you honestly believe that a few people saw a "dead man" come to life? Well if that's the case... I had a nice chat with my long dead grand father. OH I saw him! Really! *Gets some people to confirm her claim*

However, I think a positive in religion is the emotional strength it gives people. If we all believed in nothing... well, how boring would that be?

[SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing]

God created the garden of Eden with the tree of knowledge in it. Why place such a blatant temptation?

God did not create humans to obey without any alternative. To love without the choice is contrary to the nature of love, so God gave the basic choice of obeying or not obeying.

The Tree of Knowledge sounds to me like a story about how we should shun further knowledge and remain in ignorant bliss.

The tree of knowledge of good and evil represented the essence of the freedom to disobey God. Some people think that the tree was nothing more than a tree, and had no wisdom hidden in its fruits. The simple act of disobeying God might have been what brought the knowledge of evil into the world, as it did with sin itself.

Your god is flawed because sin came and he didnt intend to have sin in the world.

You're right, God did not want sin in the world. But he did want mankind to have the choice. Saying "You're free to choose unless you choose in the way I don't want you to. Then you can't." is not offering a free choice.

The flaws of my gods are yet unproven since they intended to make humans that have the decision between good and bad.

But your gods created sin. You say that sin is in the very destiny that the gods have planned out as a balance, or to help define good, so that must mean that your gods make people sin. You say that everyone has a destiny, that it is all planned and that we can't change it. Where is the free will in that? If it was Hitler's unalterable destiny to slaughter millions in cold blood, then your gods are responsible.

And I was just saying you have been told christianity is the only true thing and believe it. That is brainwash.

You believe that the earth hangs in the nothingness of space correct? Ancient civilizations believed the earth rested on the back of a giant turtle or a similar creature. Now, you'd have to be an idiot to still believe that, so is saying that the earth hangs in the nothingness of space and that nothing else is true mean that you're brainwashed?

I believe that Christianity is the only true religion because Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me." Jesus did not say, "a" way, he said "the" way, "the" truth, and "the" life. Singular. He also said that there is only one possible way to come before the Father God and offer repentance for sin was through one man, the essence of God brought down to man's level to sympythise with us and us with him to act as an intercessor to God on our behalf.

I cede this debate to you, SlowlyCrazyIamGoing. I mean, you haven't converted me or anything, but you've thoroughly trumped me at debate.

Thank you. And that's the point; I don’t want to shove the Gospel down your throat. It’s just a lot to make you think.

He pulls up a good point. If a god existed, he would be malevolent in that sense.

I’m going to be summarizing This Page.

Then how would you suggest God disallow evil? If He were to simply force everyone to be good, then there would be no free will. If he were to make everyone’s sins have no consequences, then no one would learn from their mistakes. And if God were to simply eliminate those who sin from the earth and judge them accordingly, then there would be no one left. Romans 3:23 says that “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” And Romans 6:23 says, “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Another case is the perfect god. It always bothers me when people say he is perfect. I don't think that could be remotely possible, as the logic of perfect is an opinion.

If you comprehend God, he is not God.

You’re half right. I think we can agree that a good definition of perfect is “without any sort of fault, impurity, or blame”. However, as imperfect creatures, we cannot fully comprehend that idea, and thus can’t fully comprehend God. We’re not sure what perfect is.

If one person simply thought of God as not perfect, then thus would rule out of him/her being perfect.

One person thinking something does not make it true. One person could think that it rains orange juice, but it’s not true

Do you honestly believe that a few people saw a "dead man" come to life? Well if that's the case... I had a nice chat with my long dead grand father. OH I saw him! Really! *Gets some people to confirm her claim*

Really? Then in that case you would obviously have no problem living the entire rest of your life constantly telling everyone you met about the fact, even at the risk and innevitability of hatred, mockery, and torture. And then after you’ve done that for several decades, you would of course endure the most agonizing death in any gruesome way you can think of from being sawn in half to being boiled alive when at any moment you could tell them that you were just being sarcastic and they would stop. But you wouldn’t tell them that, would you? Not even to save your own life, because your long dead but recently resurrected grandfather was so impacting, so radical, so influentially and catastrophically important that you couldn’t help but keep on proclaiming it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I’m going to come back to the evolution stuff later, I still need to do a lot of research on it.

[Falseglory]

K, i did not read all those other posts from a couple days ago, and even the ones very recent. I just saw a religion thread, and i had to get my opinion out.
First of all, i was raised christian. We went to church, and all that good stuff.
Now, i don't know if it was because i got older, but i started to not believe as much, however...
I do believe in some divine creator, otherwise how would we all be here. Do you know the chances of or planet being exactly that far from the sun, and exactly on the tilt it has?? Trust me, their not very high...
Also, and yes i am stealing this from that one book that i can't think of its name right now:
The bible does not specify how long the "first day" was...I could easily have been the millions/billions of years that are obvious due to archeological evidence.
So for one, when an archeologist mentions that a rock is 2 million years old, and a religous nut says it bs, the religous nut(srry if i'm offending0 is clearly wrong.

One Q:where exactly does the first book of the bible come from? does it mention it somewere?i don't know, someone please inform me

And, remember(or maybe you don't?) the story bout moses and all those plagues?
They've essentially been scientifically proven to be natural phenomenon.
However, the exacting crossing location(of the river) of moses and his men was found.

I do believe in some kind of afterlife. Why would there be such things as ghosts? The supernatural phenomenon of ghosts/spirits is comletely real.
People may say "their just dust bits/bugs" for orbs, or"just luck" for some of the random noices and movements, but their obvoiusly religous(prob) too.

And in the end, if it really comes down to it, and we're all just wrong. Then the quote is true"
"God didn't create man, man created god." in fear of what might come next, or to give people a purpose.

For all we know, some government agency could have The Ark of the Coveneant locked somewhere deep in an underground vault?
If anything, religion is a way to control millions of people. A way to justify the saying "The end justifies the means." For years people have done things in the name of god.
Not good things either.
So, a way to substantiate human existence? Or, a way to justify anything from murderous acts, to controlling entire populations?
You decide(along with the divine creation idea) I myself don't really want to worry about it that much. Life's too short to worry about things that potentilly won't really matter in the end anyways.
/rant