RolePlayGateway™

[Oran Tarlin]

I love letting a debate stoop for a while, (Though I can admit my opinion always seems to fall flat) But this has been fascinating to read. Ultimately I see people trying to decide what is right and wrong, which sounds a hell of a lot like religion.

I am just glad to see the faith. Faith in anything is good for humanity, we are the only creatures with the ambition to build Pyramids and Great Walls. We have conquered the world, and religion is there to help us connect with that beyond the world. Faith will exist as long as humans do, because we can't understand everything, and that is just fine with me. Don't worry about the end that may come, just know that you have this gift of intelligent life, you are able to do anything! So do it! Live life, and die, and then you can finally know if it was all worth it.

[Aniihya]

Slowly: You are twisting my words. My gods have made good and evil for a good reason. If you didnt have evil how would you define good. And my gods dont control the sins of humans but have made rules to define good and evil: Good is to love your brethren and sisters, friends and family, show gratitude and respect, honor and pride, equal be all. Bad is to kill someone who doesnt want to be killed, to rape, to disadvantage others by the origin, gender or sexuality, to steal. And thats just a fraction of it. My priestess could tell more, I am only a priest in learning. It isnt a real paid job but the circle needs a priest to replace the priestess when her time has come. We have more priestesses because a lot of men want power and be the stronger gender. I was chosen because I am not corrupt and I am lawful by our morals. Dont try to say that my religion is flawed due to corrupt men because your religion has at least the percentage of corrupt men as my religion does. Dont believe I am mad. I can forgive people, I am calm and peaceful, I have a very good sense of right or wrong, I solve problems and thats why I am eligible to be a priest of my religion.
To destiny: You cant justify destiny because destiny cant be predicted. The gods made destiny but destiny is a nature for itself. My gods dont control destiny and its against their rules for them to control it. Ereshkigal once tried it but was punished to live as a pig for one lifetime. Destiny doesnt influence free will. A falling piano that might kill somebody isnt free will. Free will is if you decide to die or decide to move out of the way so you cant get hit by the falling piano. Destiny is just nature, luck and environment. A persons choice isnt influenced by destiny but the outcome of the choice will be destiny. To define destiny by mesopothamian (babylonian, sumer, berber, levantine) religion, you have to imagine that you are on a path. The path has many forks. At some choices the path ends and you can go back and change your mind (but that is truely rare), sometimes you cant go back and mostly the path is a long way that ends anyways sometime. It explain if you have bad luck or mess something up you can correct that, sometimes your choice decides of life and death. And if you have lucky choices then you can live a long life (long path) but life ends sometime anyways. Your religion misdefined destiny by saying it is all made by somebody and that there is only one way. Decide what is right for you but destiny always makes the result of your choice.

[Ponats]

A challenger has appeared! >:3

Okay, I accept a bit of debate. ^^

This will be mostly @SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing.

Real quick, I should point out that translations of the Christan bible seem to be more loose then direct. The languages cannot be considered properly translated as well as properly written. One most have an open mind when reading in faith, not a closed. Like when SlowlyCrazyIAmGoing quotes Jesus:

I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the Father except through me.

Be very careful. Jesus is supposed to be the Trinity, so he would be saying something completely different here. Maybe:

I am the way of truth in life, I am the sons Father.

I personally cannot translate the language nor do I say I can. I am merely giving an example of how easily things can be misinterpreted. I think also translations are personal to the person who reads them, not to what is said literally. As then, which bible do you believe? Hell it could be a little of both.

Now I will go down to what I was quoted on. I read that page, but he is going in a direction that is best left alone. That is an interpretation what he/she thinks the god did. However, if god could do anything, any possible outcome could come from this.

This is a bit hard to explain, I'll try to go at it simply. Lets try to focus on what we know. We exist. Let's avoid the fantasy bizarre. (Where there is no sin, etc etc.) There are way too many ways we can each make things up, it won't work out well on a focused area.

So let me get to the direction I try to push with this. You cannot excuse this with no sin/evil. We know, in our opinions, that sin and evil exist. That said, we are assuming an omnipotent god exists as well. With these conditions, we have to conclude that god allows evil. If he did not allow it, it would not exist. That means god is malevolent. No flowering it up.

***

Going to 'perfect' now. I think I didn't explain myself well enough, so I will here. I am looking at perfect in the essence of its existence with the definition. So I will use your definition of it. God, logically, must be without impurity, blame, or fault. So if I think he is to blame for something, he is no longer perfect. So what I mean to say is, for the structure of perfect to work. Everyone must thing him perfect. As how the word goes, if one person thinks him imperfect, he loses perfection.

Now I know that this will quickly fall into,

we cannot fully comprehend that idea, and thus can’t fully comprehend God.

And that is perfectly fine! Pun intended. I would have to agree that god would have to be unable to comprehend. So I will ask that we stay with what we know, not what we don't. Similar to earlier. We will talk around in circles if we don't not know.

But here is what we do know. According to faith, Satan and a bunch of angels challenged god's views. For whatever reason, they went against god. We can thus assume that these angels (or demons now) do not think god is perfect. Why would you fight against something unless you thought it had a fault? Would you not blame god for why you rebelled? Would he still be pure in your eyes? And this is where I have to say no. God is not perfect.

There is one little flaw in my assumption. If angels can comprehend god as well. If they cannot, we can thus consider that we will never know he/she is perfect or not. We would have to just put it to faith.

Besides, God breaks his own rules. I don't consider beings that have higher kill counts compared Hitler and Stalin combined as good gods. ^^ (Not meant for insult, just pointing that out.) Also ninja'ing a baby into a virgin. Not cool man. XD


***

@Falseglory

First, to the question you asked. If you mean the old testament, that comes from the Jewish bibles like the Torah. Each book has a different divine author or area that is was created in. Like the Torah was supposed to have be written by Moses. (I think.)

Do you know the chances of or planet being exactly that far from the sun, and exactly on the tilt it has??

Probably about the same chances that someone decided to drive to their friends house instead of drive. Or maybe the chances of simple biomachines, like polymers, forming to create the basis of life, a cell. Or maybe the chance of symbiotic organisms working together to form a multicelluar structure. How about the chance that dinosaurs getting hit by mass extinction to be over run by the mammals? How about Asia being tan skin, Europe being white? Africa black? How about the chances that a man named Lutheran cause the revolution of the masses by simply knocking a parchment onto a church door? Scientology? Islam? Wiccan?

It comes down to a simple way of checking. Chance. What are we chancing and what are we comparing it to? Let us simply take the US 2008 election where the first man with black decent was elected into office. Now what were the chances? Well, 50% if you look at the two major parties of America. Democrats and Republicans. Oh, but wait! We have to consider the fluke change that everyone voted for the other party candidates, like Green Party, Libertarians, and alike. But should we give them equal chance or take polls into consideration. Oh! But we forgot the Democatic primaries, what was his chances of him beating Hillary? maybe the chances that he decided to go to college? The chances his parents had him as a child? The chances that the generations played out for him to be born? The chances that America beat the British in the war of independence? The chances the world was created? The chances that the universe existed?

So I'll ask you again, what are the chances that the president Obama was elected into office? As small as everything else. Very very small.

And this is why I am agnostic. What are the chances that everything worked out thru evolution? I dunno, probably the same chances a higher being decided to make everything this way.

But alas, there is hope! Chances are always compared to other factors. I will look at the monkey typewriter theory. If you had infinity monkeys randomly typing on infinity, eventually one of the monkeys will type of all of Shakespeare plays. If you shuffled a deck of cards, eventually you would shuffle it in the same exact way you bought it.

If there are infinity universes, then the chances of something happening is 100%. It will happen. That simple. But that is only we assume infinity universes. Mind fuck, no? ^^

***

@Aniihya comment

Sorry if I am reading this wrong but, no religion is any more or less corrupt in the other. Unless you want to give a very clear and non-opinionated definition of corruption, good luck. If corruption is based on your own morals, then one can only assume that everyone else will always be more corrupt. But that is a very self centered ideology. You say:

disadvantage others by the origin, gender or sexuality,

But yet then..

We have more priestesses because a lot of men want power and be the stronger gender.

That is a sexist remark. Which is totally true. (Just kidding guys! xD )

But you pull up a good point, 'destiny'. In a way, Christianity has a destiny as well. There god is omniscient. If he/she knows all, then we have no free will. Everything is already known, what we do, will do, and if we will go to hell or not. If we say that he/she knows all outcomes, then that is no better than you or I... as long as the outcomes are infinite.

***

I said a lot, probably will get some retorts soon. Good debating with you all! ^^

edit: God damn, I wrote a lot. The puns!

[Aniihya]

There will always be corrupt people in every religion, so some religions try to filter out the corrupt. We most have priestesses because mostly women pass a test relying on their personality and faith. To be eligible to be priest/priestess at least half of the religious circle has to see you as a good person by religious moral. I was not trying to be sexist but men seem somewhat aggressive and intolerant in some cases. But some women are like that to: For example my mother: She is a religious catholic. She was in shock and in panic when I said I converted to paganism. She said stuff like: "As long as you live in my house you are not gonna convert to another religion." and "Pagans are devilworshippers and full of sinners." My father is atheist but he only let himself get baptized for the love of my mother. In other cases that arent very religious (like telling her I am gay) she shows sympathy.
And to corruption I said that it is bad to disadvantage people because of origin, gender or sexuality.

[Falseglory]

In response to your response to my post, Ponats:
If it really comes down to chance, be that 50-50, or what have you, then it is completely possible that god, if there is one, is only there by chance.
That in the opposite reasoning, by chance, there is no god, and that we're all just here.
Jumping here: I find it fascinating that we jumped from a topic about "what religion are you" to"a debate about right and wrong."
Cause if that's not what it is now, someone please say otherwise.

[Lukisod]

Technically the universe doesn't operate on random chance. The reason we assign random chance to things is because we cannot possibly take into account EVERY variable at play when something happens. We can only take a statistical guess at it. But thing don't just happen just because someone rolled some cosmic dice, there's always an explainable phenominon at work.

I think I'll go back and restate that I have nothing against God. I have problems with the things people do in his name.

Want my philosphy of God? He's well above caring if I praise him or not. He gave me an inate sense of pleasure and pain. No books or scriptures or stone tablets. No visions or prohits or whispers in the wind. Simple good and bad feelings. Something we all have regardless of race, language or culture. Pleasure and joy to show me that I do good in his eyes and Pain and sorrow to show me I am doing wrong in his eyes. We should be enjoying earth and what it has in it. We should strive to make sure others can and do enjoy earth and what it has in it. We should have enjoyment which is not at the expense of another enjoyment. The highest ideal being the creation of such positive experiences for others while not causing negative experiences of others.

If there is an afterlife I will be judged not on my adherance to dogma or based on infractions I committed during my 70-some years alive. I will be judged as I am. Am I a good person or a bad person. But hopefully I will die and that will be the end of it. Not because I'm afraid of facing him. I have confidence that so far I've faced life the best I could. I hope I will get to rest eternally, undisturbed in the nothingness that I wont even know I'm in.

That is my outlook based what I can expeience and what I belive any supreme, omnipotent being would want from something as insignificant as all of us.

[Falseglory]

Good point lukisod.
And besides, if out of all the religions that people believe in, and it so happens that...um..that one religioni can't think of right now is the real one, then we're all predestined anyway. Which is a ridiculous idea, that right from the get go you are either saved, or damned. No amount of praying and good deeds could save, you can't even convert people, just give them the news about it.In fact, you were encouraged to do good deeds even though they wouldnt matter in the end. Makes no sense at all.

[Gautama]

Falseglory, I believe you are thinking of Calvinism.

[Falseglory]

Am I? I do not know, but if you say so.
I thought it was that religion that amish people have(or, something like that.)
like puritinism.
I don't know. Did someone already mention the church's corruptness, and aparent thirst for power?

[GhaKha]

All i'm saying to this is... this:

If you can actually prove a single thing from religion that isn't a highly exagerrated version of an exaggerated tale spun to sound prophetic, along with the un-proveable man in the sky,
I will literally eat my mouse, get on my knees and sing banana phone for sixteen hours without stop.

[Mid]

Why are you so hostile? I was makng a point and whole they "torture" my ass I will smile. This is our opinions, no need to get offended.

The whole "Jesus on a cross" thing was based on Romans actually doing this to Christains. Hell, I bet you Jesus is in reference to Costitaine (sp?). He is the one who stopped his roman ppl from tormenting Christains. I would believe in them seeing him as a "rebirth within Rome" over an actual guy coming back to life. The bible is "symbolic." It has stories in it made by man in an effort to give us morals that applied to that time period. The same goes for all religion. Symbolic.

[Pleonasms]

All i'm saying to this is... this:

If you can actually prove a single thing from religion that isn't a highly exagerrated version of an exaggerated tale spun to sound prophetic, along with the un-proveable man in the sky,
I will literally eat my mouse, get on my knees and sing banana phone for sixteen hours without stop.

Not everything that comes from religion is a matter of proof, or faith, or even calls into question the existance of the "man in the sky". Some stories are just humanitarian anecdotes, touted by the religion because they are effective. Like the Bible's "cast the first stone" yarn.
I'm not gonna try to argue you into that bout of Banana Phone... but not everything that comes from religion is worthless enough to merit hostility.

... says the Atheist

[Shiva]

All religions boast about their gods, or God is the real deal and whatnot. But they can't really say anything to disprove the other religion's gods/God without disproving their own. This is the paradox. We live in a world where science dominates everything, and even now people still cling to their beliefs, even going as far to integrate science with religion and censoring anything that their 'God' would not do. Such an example is Evolution, still unaccepted by the Christians.

Anyways, It's not like I can change anyone's viewpoints, but I do not believe in god. Sure, there are times where I wish I could blame my misfortunes on some deity in the sky that toys with my life and gets a good giggle, but overall I am the kind of person that requires hard fact to believe that this man in the sky exists. Thus, I am deemed an Atheist, I determine right and wrong by my own morales, and not by a set book of rules based on some imaginary man in the clouds.

§

[Sammich]

I feel like debating religion.

I'll start:

There is no god.

[vangelis]

I'm too busy for religion. I really don't find the time in my life for a religion, theistic or not.

[Sammich]

I'm too busy for religion. I really don't find the time in my life for a religion, theistic or not.

Forget too busy. There's no good reason to believe in any religion or deity.

[Aniihya]

I am a pagan. But with traditions I am more of an Alevi. I do not celebrate Christmas but therefore celebrate Nicholas day. I dont believe in Christ but therefore in El/Hak (two different languages first one is Assyrian, second is Turkish) and many under/demigods.

[Gasmask]

I believe in Horus.

You know that guy...from egypt..

Yeah! Him.

I think he's pretty cool.

[Sammich]

I like Thor.

He has a hammer. And likes to kill stuff.

What else could you want in a deity?

I am a pagan. But with traditions I am more of an Alevi. I do not celebrate Christmas but therefore celebrate Nicholas day. I dont believe in Christ but therefore in El/Hak (two different languages first one is Assyrian, second is Turkish) and many under/demigods.

Why do you believe in those gods? What proof do you have of their existence?

[Aerial]

Why do people make threads like this, and why do people even give a shit? Personally, I'm an atheist. I genuinely tried to believe, and I genuinely cannot believe. But, being an atheist is only about 10% of who I am, maybe even less. I'm sure most people here don't define themselves as theists, and I'm sure most don't practice daily rituals that have to do with their beliefs. The biggest problems with threads like this, is that they aren't even actually about the institution of religion, as much as they are about the belief systems. I'm not the biggest fan of religion, Christopher Hitchens being one of my favorite authors on the subject, but I couldn't care less about the beliefs themselves. Who cares if there is an intelligent and omnipotent creator? Who cares if there isn't? If there is, its most likely not any of the deities humans follow. If there isn't, still who cares. While I do find religion to be poisonous, I don't have a problem with the beliefs themselves. If this was actually a religion thread and not a thread pertaining to origins, we might actually have a genuine discussion.