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[Skallagrim]

On that note...I will remind everyone to keep the debate civil and on topic. Aerial has brought up a good point, why are you not discussing the pros/cons of the central premise of religions, the way each looks at how to live a life? Not the deities or if one exists or not, but the actual structure of religions, their foundational points and what makes each foundational believe different from the others?

Skallagrim

[Sammich]

On that note...I will remind everyone to keep the debate civil and on topic. Aerial has brought up a good point, why are you not discussing the pros/cons of the central premise of religions, the way each looks at how to live a life? Not the deities or if one exists or not, but the actual structure of religions, their foundational points and what makes each foundational believe different from the others?

Skallagrim

I'd rather also discuss whether God(s) exist or not, as well as the pros and cons of religion.

[Aerial]

Really? Because I think you just want to discuss whether or not a God exists. Here, I'll lay out the whole argument so we can just skip it all:

Person A: "I believe there is no God"
Person B: "I believe there is"
Person A: "But look at all the evidence that points against the existence of a creator"
Person B: "You know, I can really can try to refute what you say and argue about it, but I'm just going to give it to you straight. I don't care what evidence you have, I will still believe. If I have enough faith to believe in a Omnipotent being that doesn't need a cause and created absolutely everything, do you honestly think anything you can say will sway me?"
Person A: "I guess not. Its really no big deal as no one will 100% know until we die. So when you think about it, no one should really give a shit what anyone believes. Wanna go eat tacos?"
Person B: "Sure"

Oh, if only all of these arguments ended with tacos, the world would be a far more pleasant place.

[Sammich]

Really? Because I think you just want to discuss whether or not a God exists. Here, I'll lay out the whole argument so we can just skip it all:

Person A: "I believe there is no God"
Person B: "I believe there is"
Person A: "But look at all the evidence that points against the existence of a creator"
Person B: "You know, I can really can try to refute what you say and argue about it, but I'm just going to give it to you straight. I don't care what evidence you have, I will still believe. If I have enough faith to believe in a Omnipotent being that doesn't need a cause and created absolutely everything, do you honestly think anything you can say will sway me?"
Person A: "I guess not. Its really no big deal as no one will 100% know until we die. So when you think about it, no one should really give a shit what anyone believes. Wanna go eat tacos?"
Person B: "Sure"

Oh, if only all of these arguments ended with tacos, the world would be a far more pleasant place.

That's assuming that the religious believer is close-minded to even the smallest remote possibility of his belief being wrong (granted, that's usually the case, but not always, especially here on a roleplaying site on the Internet).

Some people like debating, and as long as it doesn't spiral out of control, it's all fine and dandy. I think presenting arguments, having your arguments cross-examined, getting rebuttals to your arguments, hearing arguments for the other side, etc. is a healthy and natural thing to do and is a wonderful way to keep your mind in check.

Oh, if only all of these arguments ended with both sides rethinking their beliefs, the world would be a far more pleasant place.

Saying that arguing about God and religion is pointless is a juvenile thing to say, in my opinion.

[Sammich]

Why do people make threads like this, and why do people even give a shit? Personally, I'm an atheist. I genuinely tried to believe, and I genuinely cannot believe. But, being an atheist is only about 10% of who I am, maybe even less. I'm sure most people here don't define themselves as theists, and I'm sure most don't practice daily rituals that have to do with their beliefs. The biggest problems with threads like this, is that they aren't even actually about the institution of religion, as much as they are about the belief systems. I'm not the biggest fan of religion, Christopher Hitchens being one of my favorite authors on the subject, but I couldn't care less about the beliefs themselves. Who cares if there is an intelligent and omnipotent creator? Who cares if there isn't? If there is, its most likely not any of the deities humans follow. If there isn't, still who cares. While I do find religion to be poisonous, I don't have a problem with the beliefs themselves. If this was actually a religion thread and not a thread pertaining to origins, we might actually have a genuine discussion.

Because unquestioning belief in religion can lead to things like, say, for example, 9/11.

You can believe whatever you want and I don't have a problem with it, but when those beliefs start to cause harm, I do. The kind of mentality that we shouldn't talk about these sorts of things and question others' beliefs is a dangerous one.

[LDSJediMaster]

Ultimately it is impossible for a believer to prove the existence of any deity, but conversely it is impossible for a non-believer to disprove their existence. Any proof you give that says that there is no deity and I can say proves that there is. Religion has never, and can never, be proved or disproved with scientific fact or reason.

I will admit that I am one of that small minority that defines a large part of my identity by my religion. My religion is a significant part of who and what I am. Yes, I have considered the possibility that my religion may be false, but I have had enough personal experiences to make me believe it is not. But ultimately I don't think that religion is as important as how a person lives their life. I'd rather be around a good member of another religion than a bad member of my own.

[Aerial]

Why do people make threads like this, and why do people even give a shit? Personally, I'm an atheist. I genuinely tried to believe, and I genuinely cannot believe. But, being an atheist is only about 10% of who I am, maybe even less. I'm sure most people here don't define themselves as theists, and I'm sure most don't practice daily rituals that have to do with their beliefs. The biggest problems with threads like this, is that they aren't even actually about the institution of religion, as much as they are about the belief systems. I'm not the biggest fan of religion, Christopher Hitchens being one of my favorite authors on the subject, but I couldn't care less about the beliefs themselves. Who cares if there is an intelligent and omnipotent creator? Who cares if there isn't? If there is, its most likely not any of the deities humans follow. If there isn't, still who cares. While I do find religion to be poisonous, I don't have a problem with the beliefs themselves. If this was actually a religion thread and not a thread pertaining to origins, we might actually have a genuine discussion.

Because unquestioning belief in religion can lead to things like, say, for example, 9/11.

You can believe whatever you want and I don't have a problem with it, but when those beliefs start to cause harm, I do. The kind of mentality that we shouldn't talk about these sorts of things and question others' beliefs is a dangerous one.

Once again, people are confusing religion with belief in a deity. For example, the founding fathers of America were for the most part deists, but many denounced religion itself. Your not debating religion as much as your are debating the existence of deities. I personally feel religion has a negative influence on people that causes prejudice and often leads to travesties. But, religion has also led to important discoveries and acts of courage by those seeking change. This is to debate religion, everyone seems to want to debate creationism (Or intelligent design) which is not the same thing. I tried pointing it out and Skallagrim tried pointing it out. If the thread was titled "Does the universe need a cause" or something of that nature, most of these arguments would make sense, but its not.

[Aniihya]

I like Thor.

He has a hammer. And likes to kill stuff.

What else could you want in a deity?

I am a pagan. But with traditions I am more of an Alevi. I do not celebrate Christmas but therefore celebrate Nicholas day. I dont believe in Christ but therefore in El/Hak (two different languages first one is Assyrian, second is Turkish) and many under/demigods.

Why do you believe in those gods? What proof do you have of their existence?

I believe in these gods for a symbolic reason. It is unknown if they exist in a visible or physical form but they are there. The demigods are to be roughly translated to Christian terminology as saints. They are idols who have lived in a previous era and are in our minds as memories and even as spiritual guides. In Alevism god is not a man up in the sky but god is every person in the community. If you look for help from god, you ask the religious community for help. Everyone knows their duties and help each other. Alevism is rather a lifestyle than a religion. We neednt to pray and we feel that men and women are equal. We do not believe in the Sharia since we believe that it is a law made by evil men. In comparison to other Muslims (we would rather see ourselves as a separate religious community), we eat pork and drink alcohol. We believe in personal freedom and tolerance. There is no strict dogma in Alevism. You may call god however you like (El, Hak, Allah, Allakh, God, Enlil etc.) but you should know that god/the community only want peace and friendship. We tolerate other religions. It doesnt matter what they believe in, as long as there is at least some good in the belief (that means Scientology is a sect and not a religion).

Here is my question: Why do Christians and many atheists have to force their opinions upon others? Yes I am talking about Aerial. I see some aggressiveness in his posting. Not everything needs proof as long as it has a purpose. The purpose of religion is to find hope and something to hang on to in bad times. Religion is for those who are searching of the purpose of their life and the best way for that is to be in a community and have friends. You should believe in what you want. Sometimes things do not need logic as long as there is a good intention. I have commonly seen corruption in religion, for example: Muslims blowing themselves into martyrdom because they are blinded by the evil their leaders have brought upon them or Christians who do missionary work because they believe that everyone should believe in what they believe. For them it is just a fight to show how "wrongly" gloriful their religion is and to make the world believe in what they believe.

But not all Christians and Muslims are like that. The Syrian Orthodox church is one of the most tolerant churches I have seen in Christianity. Good muslim groups with a extremely low chance of extremism are Sufis, Bektaschis, Druze, Alawis and Ismailis. The only bad pagan movements are the racist and antisemitic völkisch movements.

[Village Alchemist]

On that note...I will remind everyone to keep the debate civil and on topic. Aerial has brought up a good point, why are you not discussing the pros/cons of the central premise of religions, the way each looks at how to live a life? Not the deities or if one exists or not, but the actual structure of religions, their foundational points and what makes each foundational believe different from the others?

Skallagrim

The structure, ethics, life-style reccomendations, and rules of a religion is irrelevant if it's god/gods/God does not exist. Even if He/She/They/It does exist, there still has to be evidence that He/She/They/It actually said the things their religion says they said in order for those rules to matter.

So we have to decide whether deities exist or not before we can talk about the rest of it.

[Aniihya]

Village Alchemist: Who cares if deities exist or not? That kind of discussion is a time wasting and pointless as discussing what the exact number to Pi is with its infinite decimals.

[organizedchaos]

I would like to toss my name into the hat.

I am not atheist, though I do not believe in God. I believe that something had to have started the science that everyone seems to view as the antithesis of religion. Why can there not be both? Can they not be two sides of the same coin? Consider this for a moment:

Someone who has faith believes that something is real, without proof.
Someone who relies solely on scientific discovery believes because logic has proven their beliefs to be true.

Has anyone discovered where I'm going with this? I simply would like to point out that, regardless of whether the belief is fact or fiction, they both believe in something.

And I think the power of the imagination is the most divine power of all.

[End of Reality]

I would like to toss my name into the hat.

I am not atheist, though I do not believe in God. I believe that something had to have started the science that everyone seems to view as the antithesis of religion. Why can there not be both? Can they not be two sides of the same coin? Consider this for a moment:

Someone who has faith believes that something is real, without proof.
Someone who relies solely on scientific discovery believes because logic has proven their beliefs to be true.

Has anyone discovered where I'm going with this? I simply would like to point out that, regardless of whether the belief is fact or fiction, they both believe in something.

And I think the power of the imagination is the most divine power of all.

Well, yes, everyone believes in things, because to simply think something is true is to believe something. Unless you think that everything you know is a lie, you have beliefs. Some beliefs, though, are a lot more justified than others.

To your point about two sides to the same coin: actually, yes, they are two sides to the same coin, but science still is the antithesis of religion, at least in my opinion. Religion requires you to take something on faith. Science learns things through empirical evidence, logic, etc. Scientists can still be religious, but I think they should acknowledge the stark contrast between science and religion.

[End of Reality]

Village Alchemist: Who cares if deities exist or not? That kind of discussion is a time wasting and pointless as discussing what the exact number to Pi is with its infinite decimals.

You do have a point here -- it can be kind of bit pointless to argue about whether any sort of god exists at all. What really matters if specific deities exist, i.e. the Judeo-Christian God, the Hindu gods, Zeus, etc.

[Shooting Stars]

I am not an atheist, but I'm not a theist either. I have seen no proof for neither god nor the expanding universe. Although, I tend to lean toward the more logical (in my opinion) side of the Big Band theory and expanding universe. I mean, at least the scientist of our day can give proof of their thoughts and theories. I haven't met one theist that can give me good, hard proof of a god other than "the Bible says so" or "Jesus made it clear."

[Leif Cauldor]

I'll state, like I said before in the chat room, I am non-committal. I believe in something after this life. But, with that, I do not believe as most people do. I'm not saying that there isn't a God, or Gods, or recurring lives. I'm saying that without physical proof. There is no reason to speculate. I believe that when I die, something will happen. I'm not saying any of us have a soul to go on to the afterlife with, or even to transfer in to a cockroach, as there is not physical proof. But, I do believe that when I die, there will be something. Maybe I'll see pearly gates, maybe I'll come back as a fly, maybe I'll meet Allah. Hell, I may even wind up in purgatory. But, all-in-all, I will not commit myself to one religion when there are hundreds of mistakes, contradictions, and proven facts left out of their 'stories'.

[Nights Word]

I would like to say this. I am a very open minded person, never fully believing anything like gods and such but never disbelieving it either. I don't follow any specific god but I'm willing to think that they might exist. Who knows, a number of things are out there that we don't know about... the universe is infinite after all so there will always be new things to discover and we barely know anything about this world let alone the planets around us... And then there is the theory about multiple dimensions and that leads onto hundreds of other theories. I mean, we have no evidence to suggest god and spirits don't exist. We do have evidence that spirits exist, witnesses, people who claim to have seen them, who knows, maybe there really is an afterlife but until anybody can provide concrete evidence to prove either one I'll keep an open mind...

[JewelGlutton]

I'm Christian. Now, let me explain my reasons. I was raised Catholic. Why? Ancestors.

I was smart enough to start questioning it after a while, and when I found out about views on gays, or bis... "Why?". Was my question. I see nothing wrong with it. As long as it is on the same level of intelligence, I'm fine. Animals, no. Aliens might be okay, though I'm not sure.

My grandma yells at me for not going to church. I believe that God/Jesus can be worshipped from the home. I recently had a baby brother, and on Saturday night, my grandma said. "Why don't you go to church and give thanks for a safe delievery?!". I said, "Because I can thank god whenever and wherever I want. He can be worshipped from home.". She laughed so fake, and I smirked.

And those people that consider your body a house to god... that creeps me out. Of course, I keep him and his son in my heart. But... it's kinda' my body, right? Don't I deserve truly own something?

Magic of the devil? Erm... Wouldn't what God does fall under some type of magic? Holy magic, yes. Still, magic in a way.

I try not to take his name in vain, but I do get angered easily.

Any other things?... Killing for self-defense. If you have the option to not kill, try. If you gotta kill, kill.

[Steppin' Razor]

I'm going to post here right before I go offline and against my better judgement, like a hit and run, to just say two things:

1) I skimmed the last page and I seem to almost completely agree with everything Sammich said on this last page.

2) The burden of proof is on religion, not ideas representative of the known world. People absolutely love to throw in the whole bit about how neither side can prove it. A quick and ridiculous but entirely relevant example: In real life, I am the manifestation of a powerful spirit known as Hank that is as old as the universe itself, but I choose to live and function as a normal human being in order to experience each successive age of humanity back to back. Every time I die I am simply reborn again and again. If a cult or tribe believed in me, they could not prove any of this. But more importantly, you can't prove me wrong because we don't have an Ancient Spirit Litmus Test.


If you have a response for me with a single shred of evidence, feel free to look me up in chat and try to engage me in conversation about this post that I already regret typing. If not please just don't bother mentioning it to me and we can co-exist like the omnivores we are.

[Psyche]

I thoroughly love talking about life, being, knowledge, etc...I like to think that thoughts like these are what bring poetry about. Am I wrong?

But I keep seeing errors that irk me, so I think I'm gonna be a reference guide.

Categories:
Theism
Atheism
Agnosticism

Expressions of Theism:
Religions

Espressions of Atheism:
Secularism

Moving along. Many times I've heard said there's no proof of god(s), but I think that should be qualified. Empirically (as of now). But you cannot prove that he doesn't. Now, epistemologically, the burden of proof cannot be on anyone to prove a negative. However, too many times I've read "I'm logical" and quite frankly, you're using the term incorrectly. Logic doesn't stand on either side. It is an objective study of arguments.

Logically, you can't say "I believe in god because you can't prove there is none." Logically, you also cannot say "I don't believe in god because you can't prove there is one." Because both of those fall under the same category. Informal fallacies, appeals to ignorance.

To your point about two sides to the same coin: actually, yes, they are two sides to the same coin, but science still is the antithesis of religion, at least in my opinion. Religion requires you to take something on faith. Science learns things through empirical evidence, logic, etc. Scientists can still be religious, but I think they should acknowledge the stark contrast between science and religion.

That's also false. To pit the existence of god vs. science is a categorical error. Science is the discussion ground on which the debate is conducted. Logic is a science. "God v. Science" is also a logical fallacy. Begging the question. Science is the discipline of experimentation (and some other things, I'll edit this when I get home). You can't say "1+1=2" is wrong. It's self evident. That's science. God is an ultimate personified being (postulated), not a discipline; much the same way science isn't an ultimate personified being. Moreover, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Carry on. :D

[TrueConnection]

I'm a Server monk.

Because I unfortunately cannot live without it. ;)

That is all.