The first thing I would do in playing a character that could go invisible is to first limit accessibility to the power. This can be done by requiring the use of a specific piece of equipment (as with the Starcraft Ghost's ability to cloak themselves) or a specific power that requires active concentration to maintain. In both cases, there should be a specified time limit and cooldown period for the ability.

Second, the conditions under which the invisibility might be subverted, bypassed or otherwise ignored should be clearly spelled out. While a werewolf character might well and truly be able to sniff out an invisible opponent, for example, I believe most of us are familiar with the old adage that football is a game of inches. The same might be said of close-quarters combat on any power level, where the slightest twist of the torso can turn a mortal blow into a total whiff. Even if you can get a general idea of the invisible character's whereabouts, you're still going to have a devil of a time actually hitting them without resorting to an area attack or possessing some other way of discerning their exact location and stance.

Third, not all methods of invisibility allow the user to maintain the effect while actively working to damage the opponent. In such a case, much can still be done to make the foe's life hell, but these generally fall under the umbrella of having some other force do your dirty work. (One could also conceivably use it to buy the necessary time to prep a real doozy of a technique, either for offense or defense.) If the foe is on a rope bridge over a chasm and you're invisible, you couldn't shoot an arrow or a lightning bolt at him to take advantage of his limited mobility, but you could hack away at the bridge itself or sic your pet on the poor sap.

qbsuperstar03 wrote:The first thing I would do in playing a character that could go invisible is to first limit accessibility to the power. This can be done by requiring the use of a specific piece of equipment (as with the Starcraft Ghost's ability to cloak themselves) or a specific power that requires active concentration to maintain. In both cases, there should be a specified time limit and cooldown period for the ability.

Second, the conditions under which the invisibility might be subverted, bypassed or otherwise ignored should be clearly spelled out. While a werewolf character might well and truly be able to sniff out an invisible opponent, for example, I believe most of us are familiar with the old adage that football is a game of inches. The same might be said of close-quarters combat on any power level, where the slightest twist of the torso can turn a mortal blow into a total whiff. Even if you can get a general idea of the invisible character's whereabouts, you're still going to have a devil of a time actually hitting them without resorting to an area attack or possessing some other way of discerning their exact location and stance.

Third, not all methods of invisibility allow the user to maintain the effect while actively working to damage the opponent. In such a case, much can still be done to make the foe's life hell, but these generally fall under the umbrella of having some other force do your dirty work. (One could also conceivably use it to buy the necessary time to prep a real doozy of a technique, either for offense or defense.) If the foe is on a rope bridge over a chasm and you're invisible, you couldn't shoot an arrow or a lightning bolt at him to take advantage of his limited mobility, but you could hack away at the bridge itself or sic your pet on the poor sap.

You can solve all three of those problems with one very simple requirement: the user must state the exact employed method of invisibility. If they make up their own method, they must thoroughly explain how it works in a logical manner. Reality balances itself. Fictional methods require a few restrictions, but are also extremely simple to balance.

In Realistic Melee, this is not an issue at all. Even in UM, where it is likely the only ability that character has, and Mild Powers where the number of responses to such a meek power are limitless, it is up to your character's knowledge and abilities/equipment to determine whether or not they can effectively deal with the invisibility power. If not, then tough luck; your character didn't have what it took to survive against that particular threat. That's how life works, and although most role players won't desire such a solution, it is nothing more than truth.

In fact, I might soon try to create and analyze a character that sports some form of invisibility, just to prove that it is of little consequence in every applicable tier it is in.

...I'm wondering why TS is consistently trying to downplay the merit of nearly every ability brought before this esteemed tribunal. The biggest problem I'm having with the subject, at this moment, is her seemingly intense desire to say one ability is any less than another ability. Given a stand-alone context, perhaps that sentiment could be expressed in a quantified mannerism in which there might be some minute probability that TS was accurate.

However, we're not talking about a stand-alone context. We're talking about characters using them, and to do that you have to concentrate on several other major factors which, when conjoined, would have an overwhelming powerful effect. The player. There's going to be players who are better than others, and there's going to be players who aren't as good as others. When you put a weak ability in the hands of a great player, that ability will often trump any ability held by a weaker adversary. It's been proven about a thousand times over, so I don't know why people seem to consistently forget that when they have these little debates over which power is 'better'. Powers are not inherently better than any other power. A fire mage is not inherently weaker than a Water Bender, simply because of elemental affinities. A particularly crafty Fire Mage could obliterate the Water Bender with relative ease.

I downplay everything brought to attention because this thread inadvertently hypes every ability discussed, and I am attempting to provide a counterbalance to this perceived general attitude so that the very thing that has just happened doesn't happen.

Furthermore, brilliant insight. Powers are inherently equal in a vacuum? Player skill determines who wins? It's almost as if every level-headed role player grasps these concepts upon learning T1, yet nobody but you need discuss it. Also, this entire thread has been running the assumption that a power's strength relative to others when all other aspects of the characters are assumed congruent is equal by nature. aka Equal in vacuum. What made you think I assumed otherwise?

You stated this yourself, but I'll repeat in my own words since I'm in agreement. This thread shouldn't exist. Every strategy has a counter-strategy, and every power can be beat, which makes all of them equally weak. The end.

Finally, is the "TS is a girl" joke getting old yet? I haven't been on MantraIRC in a long while.

I honestly don't get the point of this thread. Is it teaching people what to look out for or what is considered cheap and should be frowned upon? Cannot tell if it's meant to be informative or persuasive.

Silent: The first one. A lot of these mechanics are perfectly fair game, but cause massive headaches from the standpoint of having to fight it. Just because there is a counter for every power in a purely strategic sense as opposed to counter-powers doesn't mean that a person is necessarily able to pull it off the top of their head, hence the discussion in this thread.

We're trading our tips and tricks with each other in the hope that this sharing of information and analysis will make us all better prepared to face various sorts of characters, and thus make us that much better as fighters. That, I think, is the true purpose of this thread.

Finally, is the "TS is a girl" joke getting old yet? I haven't been on MantraIRC in a long while.

I legitimately keep forgetting that you're a guy. "TwilightShade" seems like a pretty feminine name, and it throws me off.

Also, Vintrict, it's supposed to be informative to the extent that it allows players to congregate and discuss the types of things they've had trouble dealing with in the past, and hopefully learn something about how to better deal with it. Really, though, it's more of a way to promote people actively speaking to one another and gaining a healthy respect for the game, and the people who play it. It's got a good fundamental basis, but too many negative nancies keep throwing in the: "THIS THREAD DOESN'T MATTER, RAWR" sensationalist bullshit. It happens.

Where do people keep getting the idea that characters in fights are inherently equal in terms of speed, strength, etc., though? I'm confused about who began spreading that idiotic propaganda. A blacksmith is going to be stronger than a locksmith, period. A marathon runner is going to be faster than a giant turtle monster, period. It's an annoying sentiment to see expressed - and actively advocated.

I think a more productive thread would be Tricks and How to Respond or Adapt to Them.

When your entire focus is "Oh this guy's ability is so absurdly cheap, I need to figure out an even more ridiculous way to 'beat' it", then the entire match is already pointless from the get go.

I feel that RP text combat is far too influenced by anime-style combat where the characters literally predict each other so well that nothing actually happens. Fights end when they supposedly 'get tired'. I'm sure all of you know from experience that a fight consisting of impossible dodges, is, quite frankly, utterly BORING, at best, and very, very aggravating at worst.

An actual fight or battle is a tremendous give-and-take. There is a saying: No plan survives contact with the enemy. No matter what your attack or defense is, you should expect (and write as if) your character cannot predict every possible outcome. Despite most people trying to make it not so, battle is inherently REACTIVE. Even prescience only would, at best, reveal a most likely course of action. People are predictably unpredictable in a conflict.

As such, when you are surprised by a clever move, or are devising one, you must leave room for the character not expecting it. PEOPLE GET HIT BY THEIR OPPONENT IN COMBAT. I cannot stress this enough. If you are hit, for the love of god, take the hit. Likewise, if you dealt the hit, do not assume a free ticket to K.O. The opponent might have a defense you had not thought of.

This should be a cooperative creative process, not a hyperbole contest.

To throw the focus back on the purpose of it's own creation: I have a need for a tacical suggestion.

If one was fighting a being made entirely out of an element or materal (most commonly being elementals, but not always.), and every single hit (non-magic/elemental) would result in the being splashing into a pool/spray of the chosen element, then reform shortly/instantly afterwards without any damage. How would one go about defeating such a creature, besides the obvious: "ZAP IT WITH IT'S ONE ELEMENTAL WEAKNESS!" ? That is, how would generic Joe, with his incredible cunning mind, defeat the seemingly invincible creature before him using no form of elemental attacks? Any other form of supernatural attacks/tactics would be usable of course, I'm just not looking for the "Fire beats Grass"-solution.

Do the obvious thing. If you're fighting a water elemental, crank up the heat on them. Make it hot around them, and then keep attacking them. If they keep turning into a pool of water, a piece of them would evaporate with each turn passed. Eventually, nothing left. Alternatively you could trap them in a jar or something of that sort.

Other answers:

Anti-elemental magic solves the problem upon a direct hit, removing the ability to reform. From there it's whatever you wanna do to kill them.

Negative Space to permanently eat away at their composition, as if taking a bite out of an apple.

Anti-matter will basically destroy the whole thing if applied correctly. An annihilation reaction on any visible scale will scatter the character's body to the corners of the planet, plus convert whatever the anti-matter touches to pure energy, prevent that part from reforming forever.

Trap the character in part or in whole while it's in the pooled state.

Anti-matter will basically destroy the whole thing if applied correctly.

Too bad that Antimatter, when coming into contact with actual matter, creates an explosion equal to about twelve hiroshima missiles. And that's giving it the low-end of the spectrum, with only about two ounces of antimatter.

Johnathan Alexander wrote:

Anti-matter will basically destroy the whole thing if applied correctly.

Too bad that Antimatter, when coming into contact with actual matter, creates an explosion equal to about twelve hiroshima missiles. And that's giving it the low-end of the spectrum, with only about two ounces of antimatter.

Then you better be ready to phase out of the dimension or become ethereal the second you release that attack (put the anti-matter within a magnetic suspension, release when ready or something). I agree it isn't very viable except at the highest of powered battles, but the form of regeneration inquired about is also rather robust and not a trivial power.

Another question, does antimatter combust upon contact with matter, or does the energy release take a different form?

Positron + electron = two gamma rays.

THAT is the power level of an antimatter reaction, people. And sure, the concept of antihydrogen (positron orbiting a negatron) is really fun and leads to all sorts of wild speculation, but it's the same problem as with silanes, the silicon-based analog of alkanes: Just because it's conceptually similar doesn't mean that it has a similar behavior. All the silanes are extraordinarily unstable, and a chain of longer than 8 silicon atoms has yet to be obtained.

Getting back on track: Say your character has a supernatural ability to psych out the opponent. Perhaps he's preternaturally skilled at feints and misdirection, or he mixes illusory attacks amid actual blows--forcing the foe to try to discern which ones he should defend against (much like a missile defense system trying to pick out the real target when there's a bunch of dummy targets in the airspace). How can this be modeled without it seeming like an in-game excuse to godmode, and how might one play against it? (Since competitive fighting is about OOC skill and technique, the emphasis here is on story-mode fights, where the limitations of the character and their idiosyncrasies are taken into account.)

Alright, i have to toss my two cents in here....

What this all boils down to is intelligence and capability. There is no move, power or tactic that cannot be countered.

Dealing with a chronic teleporter? First figure out which of the two primary forms of teleportation they're using, substitution or displacement, and react accordingly. Assuming you have enough power, you can lock the particle field of an area and render teleportation impossible or even fatal (imagine someone using displacement teleportation. For all practical purposes their mass is collapsed, transferred to a new location and expanded. By placing a sub-atomic stasis field you've made it impossible for them to displace the particles necessary for their mass to fill a given place. The substitution method...well, that can get nasty. Instead of replacing the particles within a certain space with their own they would integrate, causing massive sub-atomic destabilization). Even without that level of power, basic extrasensory abilities would allow for a split-second glimpse of where your opponent would appear (either through particle shift or energy surge). Even a human can counter teleportation given enough time. Keep your back to a solid object and learn your opponent.

It always comes down to a 2v2 battle of the minds...yours, your characters, your opponents and theirs.