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The Manhatten Project...

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The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby Kronos on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:34 pm

Or how I started wondering if we should have bombed Japan...

Should we have dropped Atomic weaponry on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? And was it really less costly than a land invasion would have been?
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby summersgod on Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:41 pm

It's one of those things that no one will agree on. The atomic bomb cut short a longer war that could have had, had loads of casualities and destroyed many homes and industry etc.. but there probably would not have been as many deaths than the atomic bombs.

No doubt the nukes should not have been invented but there is a very small good thing about them and thats they prevent wars as countries would be to scared to go to war with another country who has a nuclear bomb.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby LDSJediMaster on Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:12 pm

I believe that the planned invasion of Japan, Operation Downfall, would have been extremely costly, with the potential casualty count in the millions on both sides. Other battles in the Pacific showed just how visciously and fanaticly the Japanese fought, and they would have fought even harder when defending their home islands. Overall, while the the dropping of the atomics bombs on Japan is regretable, I believe that in the long run it saved the lives of thousands, if not millions of people, both Japanese and American.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby Blast on Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:34 am

Let me make something absolutely clear.

The military made an order for Purple Heart medals to be issued to the soldiers that earned them during the expected offensive on the Japanese mainland, before they knew that the invasion wasn't going to commence.

We're still using those same medals.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby Athias on Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:48 pm

Honestly? No clue. I'd like to say we'd be better off if it wasn't for the Manhatten Project, but I have a feeling we wouldn't have been. America wasn't the only country working on nukes you know, and while we're not the most innocent country in the world, the world was better off with us being to first to acquire them than certain other countries.

As for the more specific issue of dropping the bomb; I really couldn't tell you, but I suppose it might have been necesarry, and theoretically saved slightly more lives than it took. Remember, if it wasn't for the Emperor, Japan might have kept at it after the second nuke. That sort of pure tenaciousness definitly means that it might have taken an additional 2-3 years before they surrendered, costing more lives, Japanese and American.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby SheerForceOfAwesome on Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:32 am

Blast wrote:Let me make something absolutely clear.

The military made an order for Purple Heart medals to be issued to the soldiers that earned them during the expected offensive on the Japanese mainland, before they knew that the invasion wasn't going to commence.

We're still using those same medals.


This. As wildly as the estimated death toll for Operation Downfall varies from source to source, even the lowest estimates are higher than the highest estimates for Hiroshima and Nagasaki, even factoring in after-effects. We're talking literally in the millions.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby The Rogue Doll on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:15 am

I think it is arguable that the first bomb was necessary...but the second one too? I think they got the message after the first one.

And for all our preaching about finding and destroying WMDs in other countries, we remain the only country ever to have used them in war.

All my information is vague and from high school, so whip me if I am wrong, but weren't the Japanese not backing down at that point because we refused to let their emperor remain on, even as a figure thing? They are taught that that dude is God, or as close as one can be to it.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby The Rogue Doll on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:21 am

Wikipedia wrote: On May 10–11, 1945 The Target Committee at Los Alamos, led by J. Robert Oppenheimer , recommended Kyoto, Hiroshima, Yokohama, and the arsenal at Kokura as possible targets. The target selection was subject to the following criteria: (1) they are larger than three miles in diameter and are important targets in a large urban area (2) the blast would create effective damage, and (3) they are unlikely to be attacked by August 1945. "Any small and strictly military objective should be located in a much larger area subject to blast damage in order to avoid undue risks of the weapon being lost due to bad placing of the bomb." These cities were largely untouched during the nightly bombing raids and the Army Air Force agreed to leave them off the target list so accurate assessment of the weapon could be made. Hiroshima was described as "an important army depot and port of embarkation in the middle of an urban industrial area. It is a good radar target and it is such a size that a large part of the city could be extensively damaged. There are adjacent hills which are likely to produce a focussing effect which would considerably increase the blast damage. Due to rivers it is not a good incendiary target." The goal of the weapon was to convince Japan to surrender unconditionally in accordance with the terms of the Potsdam Declaration. The Target Committee stated that "It was agreed that psychological factors in the target selection were of great importance. Two aspects of this are (1) obtaining the greatest psychological effect against Japan and (2) making the initial use sufficiently spectacular for the importance of the weapon to be internationally recognized when publicity on it is released. In this respect Kyoto has the advantage of the people being more highly intelligent and hence better able to appreciate the significance of the weapon. Hiroshima has the advantage of being such a size and with possible focussing from nearby mountains that a large fraction of the city may be destroyed. The Emperor's palace in Tokyo has a greater fame than any other target but is of least strategic value."[9]


Interesting.

Wikipedia wrote: It was one of several Japanese cities left deliberately untouched by American bombing, allowing a pristine environment to measure the damage caused by the atomic bomb.


It sounds almost as if they were really curious what it would do.
Wikipedia wrote:About an hour before the bombing, Japanese early warning radar detected the approach of some American aircraft headed for the southern part of Japan. An alert was given and radio broadcasting stopped in many cities, among them Hiroshima. At nearly 08:00, the radar operator in Hiroshima determined that the number of planes coming in was very small—probably not more than three—and the air raid alert was lifted. To conserve fuel and aircraft, the Japanese had decided not to intercept small formations.


And these guys feel like the biggest jackasses on the planet.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby The Rogue Doll on Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:32 am

I just updated myself on the emperor thing, they not only wanted to keep their emperor, they wanted to be the ones responsible for demobilizing and disarming their people, no occupation, and to punish their own war criminals. Ok, I can understand a little better saying Eff you to that.
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Re: The Manhatten Project... ( )

Postby Blast on Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:00 pm

The Rogue Doll wrote:I think it is arguable that the first bomb was necessary...but the second one too? I think they got the message after the first one.


They really didn't. Hirohito was still waffling after the first one, and he was the only guy who got to call the shots.

And for all our preaching about finding and destroying WMDs in other countries, we remain the only country ever to have used them in war.


Erm, WMDs include chemical and biological weapons, like the VX, sarin and mustard gas used in the Iran-Iraq War, the gas used by the Bolsheviks to put down the Antonovtsi peasants in Tambov, the tremendous variety of poison gases used by both sides in WWI and the anthrax used by the Germans particularly, the mustard gas, plague, typhoid, phosgene, cyanic acid and Lewisite used during Imperial Japanese exterminations of other "inferior" Asians and the similar measures taken in Nazi Germany. The Haganah (a paramilitary Israeli force) is also suspected of poisoning Egyptian water supplies during the 1948 war. I have deliberately omitted suspicions of brucellosis use in the Korean War and the use of defoliants in the Vietnam War, because my point here is that, yes, other nations (presumably by "we" you meant "the United States") have used WMDs in war—and some out of it, too.

All my information is vague and from high school, so whip me if I am wrong, but weren't the Japanese not backing down at that point because we refused to let their emperor remain on, even as a figure thing? They are taught that that dude is God, or as close as one can be to it.


Defeat is shameful in traditional Japanese culture. If you lose, you are not fit to live, and therefore you must kill yourself—or if you're too afraid, a friend will helpfully do it for you. So, your assessment is partially true, but the reaction mainly came from the idea that they would lose at all.
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