Me, myself, I am no vegan. But recently I am at conflict with the entire vegans of the next largest city due to me standing by my principles. 80% of the meat I eat is hunted. About on 25% of that I have hunted myself. I eat animal products such as milk and cheese made of cow or goat milk. My diet consists of salad, lots of meat (two meals a day) and garden vegetables. I eat dessert once a week. Dessert can be either ice cream or pudding. I regularly ride my motorbike or ride the bicycle for short distances. I am perfectly healthy and am rarely sick (flu every two years or so).

Though vegans claim they are healthier than omnivores because vegans dont eat animal products. They also claim that humans are herbivores by nature although humans have an omnivorous set of teeth.

Their main arguments:

-No animal rights
-Animals are mass slaughtered in a grotesque way with daily torture in their life before slaughter.
-Pigs live in their own feces.
-Animals shouldnt be killed or slaughtered at all.
-If humans want meat they should turn to cannibalism
-Meat causes cancer, illness, stroke and heart attacks
-They live a healthy lifestyle without animal products.
-Humans arent animal and are better than animals both in life and intellect.
-Because humans have intellect they shouldnt eat animals.
-They claim many inventors and thinkers were vegetarians.

On the basis of these arguments many vegans can be snobby and become irrational in arguments.

My arguments:
-Humans are animals.
-Humans are probably one of the most cruel and violent animals in the world: War, brutality, crime against others of their kind.
-Humans have the right to hunt and kill since they are animals but hunting and killing should be for food.
-Other parts of the carcass should be used.
-Vegans are hypocrites since they care about animals yet live in a house that is on land that was once an animal habitat. They ride bicycles and drive cars although the oil and steel industries are two great industries that destroy habitats and environments. Conventional energies are a problem of pollution. Etc.
-One person can change the thinking of a group but not that of an entire population. A small group within an entire population wont make a significant difference.
-Vegans tend to call omnivores stupid and immature when they feel cornered. Many vegans (at least those who I have met) tend to assume animals are raped before they are slaughtered.
-I have yet to meet a vegan who accepts the opinions of others and isnt arrogant.

To the vaguely trolly anti-vegan I dont want to come since their arguments are normally full of ignorance and mockery such as "you cannot write slaughter without laughter" or so.

What are your opinions to this matter?

Note: I do not want any mockery, flaming or name calling. If you claim veganism or omnivorous diets are healthier then link a source of proof that isnt based on a vegan propaganda site or a meat pride site.

I am no vegan. I eat lots of processed meats, hamburgers, sausage, steak, whatever. I eat almost exclusively bread, meat, cheese, potato and copious amounts of sugar and salt in whatever form feels tastiest to me. I give no thought to a balanced nutritional diet, only what I feel hungry for at the time. I spend a good 12 hours a day in front of a computer at work and at home and the army dedicates an hour or so of my day to doing some form of physical fitness. I can run 5km at a good pace, and go further with little problem once I get over my hump. I can ruck 100lbs of kit over a few Km and I can run 40lbs around at a good combat pace. I don't get sick because I've ignored most hygiene standards most of my life and my body has developed a good immunity because of it (I get a flu once every 2 years or so like you Aniihya)

Now! On to my points against vegans...

I'd like to point out that our body doesn't really care how it's gets it's nutrition. It's all molecules to be sorted, stored and used later for metabolism. The question of how best to obtain these molecules is a moot point for the purposes of nutrition. You can be just as healthy in either direction and within a given range of each of those nutrients. Your body is quite adept at convincing you to eat what you need to eat when you're deficient a certain nutrient. You begin to crave it and you gain satisfaction when you ingest it.

If cruelty to animals is your thing, consider the plants you eat. It's all living matter. You have killed something so you can survive. Just because the plants you rip apart and let re-grow year after year, or uproot entirely, doesn't have a face or a physical manifestation of pain, doesn't excuse the act if you are speaking strictly of the morality of death for the sake of your survival. You've already accepted that a certain level of death is acceptable to you in order for you to live. You just draw an arbitrary line at how much death you wish to inflict.

I'd like to point out that there are carnivores out there in "nature". Lots of them. I can name a couple examples off the top of my head as to the methods of killing their prey which is far less "humane" than the methods we use on the animals we domesticate and eat. I don't agree with torturing animals and I'd rather they face a quick and/or painless death and I know we can provide that. I consider the animals we eat worthy of respect. It's giving it's life so that I may live, as had it's relatives and countless other animals in the history of humanity and indeed, the history of the prey-predator relationship. If a company was doing wrong by the animals they were raising, I'd be angry as well and I'd call for someone better to do the job. But I wouldn't call a halt to the whole thing on this point.

The potential health risks of eating meat are a personal choice. I honestly don't care if I'm shaving years off my life by enjoying life now eating a steak. I don't intend on living forever. We all die and we all suffer illness. By telling me I shouldn't or can't eat meat because of that is a violation of my personal freedoms. If vegetables are your thing I fully support your right to do so. I would only ask in return, you at least allow me my own choice.

The 'We're smarter than nature" bit is... unconvincing. Really what we should do is synthesize all nutrients in a perfectly balanced and personalized food item. It could be done with today's technology. It would completely eliminate all of this bickering. However I don't see vegans calling for that. They like their salads too much.

Eh, I can't claim to be an expert on the subject. So when I say 'To the best of my knowledge, humans are omnivores, so I'm pretty sure that means eating only vegetables kinda goes against 'nature' ' I could be wrong. So I definitely eat a lot of meat. I love me a good hamburger or a nice steak. Cannae help that :v

As to the points you brought up for vegans - and note that everything below is to the best of my knowledge and I'm by no means to be considered well-versed on the subject. I may be wrong on some of these, and if I am let me know.

"Animals are mass slaughtered in a grotesque way with daily torture in their life before slaughter." - Pretty sure that doesn't apply to all or even most places meat comes from. And every day the number of places that practice that gets smaller and smaller. Not eating meat just to protest the method of obtaining the meat is completely idiotic, however. Pretty sure you can do a lot more and have a far bigger effect by doing something useful for the animal like trying to petition for more humane methods, or rallying support for measures taken in that direction. Not eating the animal really doesn't do shit for the animal.

"Pigs live in their own feces." - Same as above.

"Animals shouldnt be killed or slaughtered at all." - Animals kill and slaughter one another for food all the time. And I guarantee you the animal would probably prefer being raised by humans and being painlessly killed, rather than in the wild where it's probably more likely to be killed and eaten a lot earlier by a natural predator.

"If humans want meat they should turn to cannibalism" - lolwut

"Meat causes cancer, illness, stroke and heart attacks" - Yeah, and not eating meat leads to zinc deficiencies (which is important for healthy skin and immune systems), it can cause iron deficiencies (since meat is a big source of iron, which is vital all round to good health, especially to the elderly or children), it's a primary source of protein which is vital to muscle and organ health, and is one of the main sources of Vitamin B (which is not found in any plant products). Now granted, eating meat to excess leads to adverse effects--eating anything to excess leads to adverse effects, plants included.

"They live a healthy lifestyle without animal products." - See above. It's pretty hard to live a healthy lifestyle without animal products.

"They claim many inventors and thinkers were vegetarians." - That's a completely moronic point to make. What, is that implying you're smarter if you're a vegetarian? Well, I'm pretty sure a lot more inventors and thinkers were omnivores, but that's a completely pointless argument to make. It's hardly worth addressing.

Aniihya wrote:Their main arguments:

-No animal rights
-Animals are mass slaughtered in a grotesque way with daily torture in their life before slaughter.
-Pigs live in their own feces.
-Animals shouldnt be killed or slaughtered at all.
-If humans want meat they should turn to cannibalism
-Meat causes cancer, illness, stroke and heart attacks
-They live a healthy lifestyle without animal products.
-Humans arent animal and are better than animals both in life and intellect.
-Because humans have intellect they shouldnt eat animals.
-They claim many inventors and thinkers were vegetarians.

On the basis of these arguments many vegans can be snobby and become irrational in arguments.

Darn those snobby vegans! It's unfortunate that you've encountered the worst of their condescending opinions. However, I can assure you that many of their points are not irrational and are backed up by solid scientific evidence, especially with regards to the health effects of a diet largely composed of meat. I am a vegetarian, and I do so because of many reasons. Here are a few:

1) The environmental impact of factory farmed meat. The amount of land, water, and fossil fuels that are used to harvest the grain for domesticated animals largely outweighs the benefits of having mass amounts of meat as a food source. Livestock suck in resources, one only has to consider the second law of thermodynamics, that energy is lost as it moves up the trophic level.

2) Meat, especially the kind that is red, has many controversial health effects.

3) The meat industry are bad business partners! They exploit their farmers, hire illegal immigrants, and provide awful working conditions.

I often find that contentions over veganism revolve around their hypocrisy and snobbery while avoiding the real issues: eating a healthy diet that is environmentally sustainable. Of course it boils down to personal values and choice - perhaps something that these vegans are trying, albeit a little too hard, to impose upon you.

I find it remarkable that you eat 80% of hunted meat. This is a much better alternative to factory farmed meat - in fact, if you were to hunt your own meat sustainably, there is nothing wrong with that at all, I think. However, I'd say you're maybe 1% of the population that still does this, at least in North America. Those good old hunter-gatherer days are long gone.

Aniihya wrote:If you claim veganism or omnivorous diets are healthier then link a source of proof that isnt based on a vegan propaganda site or a meat pride site.

Consider this: are humans meant to eat diets with lots of red meat? I'd like your opinion.

Here is a peer-edited review that sums up the positive health effects of a vegan diet. There are many more that discuss the implications of a meat-heavy diet.

Lukisod wrote:I am no vegan. I eat lots of processed meats, hamburgers, sausage, steak, whatever. I eat almost exclusively bread, meat, cheese, potato and copious amounts of sugar and salt in whatever form feels tastiest to me. I give no thought to a balanced nutritional diet, only what I feel hungry for at the time. I spend a good 12 hours a day in front of a computer at work and at home and the army dedicates an hour or so of my day to doing some form of physical fitness. I can run 5km at a good pace, and go further with little problem once I get over my hump. I can ruck 100lbs of kit over a few Km and I can run 40lbs around at a good combat pace.

What an inspiring anecdote! Unfortunately, such a lifestyle may, or... is probably not, feasible for many individuals.

Lukisod wrote:I don't get sick because I've ignored most hygiene standards most of my life and my body has developed a good immunity because of it (I get a flu once every 2 years or so like you Aniihya)

So... bad hygiene causes the body to develop immunities against viruses and bacterial infections? Or just your body? Fascinating! Maybe even a scientific breakthrough!

Lukisod wrote:I'd like to point out that our body doesn't really care how it's gets it's nutrition. It's all molecules to be sorted, stored and used later for metabolism.

Yes, but perhaps you are neglecting the multitudes of different nutrients that our body actually needs. I REALLY hope that your perspective on "nutrition" isn't limited to fats, carbohydrates, protein, and fibre. Because, really, that's... completely wrong.

Lukisod wrote:Your body is quite adept at convincing you to eat what you need to eat when you're deficient a certain nutrient. You begin to crave it and you gain satisfaction when you ingest it.

While it's true that your body is good at convincing you when to eat, it is most definitely not proficient at determining which nutrients you need. Firstly, the body is hardwired to crave fats, salts, and sugars (ie. carbohydrates). These are macronutrients which, in the hunter-gatherer days that we have evolved from, are extremely energy (calorie) rich and would carry us to the next meal. Nowadays, it is the root source of obesity, diabetes, and heart disease.

Secondly, the body does not crave the micronutrients that ensure our long-term longevity and that play a large role in fighting off disease, illness, and overall health. While it is possible to survive for a long time off of dark beer, let's see how you would feel after a few days.

Lukisod wrote:If cruelty to animals is your thing, consider the plants you eat. It's all living matter. You have killed something so you can survive. Just because the plants you rip apart and let re-grow year after year, or uproot entirely, doesn't have a face or a physical manifestation of pain, doesn't excuse the act if you are speaking strictly of the morality of death for the sake of your survival.

Yet the argument you propose is animal cruelty. Are plants cognizant? Do they experience physical pain?
Still, I tend to agree with you that pain is a part of life. A cow getting its throat sliced in a factory is a lot less painful than slowly being feasted upon by a pack of wolves. I think that animal cruelty doesn't do justice to the more pressing arguments against factory farming.

Lukisod wrote:If a company was doing wrong by the animals they were raising, I'd be angry as well and I'd call for someone better to do the job. But I wouldn't call a halt to the whole thing on this point.

Yet all factory farmed meat does not treat their animals with respect. They live in their own crap, are fed an unnatural corn-based diet (which has been linked to the occurrence of ecoli in the meat, so a lot of it is treated with ammonia before being put on the market), and are pumped full of antibiotics to keep them ALIVE, yet they are far from healthy or happy. So, then, by buying meat from these factory sources which enables the entire process, are you giving them the "respect" that they deserve?

Lukisod wrote:The potential health risks of eating meat are a personal choice. I honestly don't care if I'm shaving years off my life by enjoying life now eating a steak. I don't intend on living forever. We all die and we all suffer illness. By telling me I shouldn't or can't eat meat because of that is a violation of my personal freedoms. If vegetables are your thing I fully support your right to do so. I would only ask in return, you at least allow me my own choice.

No one, ever, is denying you your rights. That's why veganism is considered a lifestyle CHOICE. So why scorn them for it?
Yes, we don't live forever. And we only live once. So why not make it a quality experience?

Lukisod wrote:The 'We're smarter than nature" bit is... unconvincing. Really what we should do is synthesize all nutrients in a perfectly balanced and personalized food item. It could be done with today's technology. It would completely eliminate all of this bickering. However I don't see vegans calling for that. They like their salads too much.

A nice dream, but until we find a way to synthesize the thousands of diverse nutrients that our body needs in distinct proportions that can vary greatly between individuals (lol), I guess we're stuck with drawing our nutrients from a wide variety of different food sources. Or neglecting to do so. But some of us, apparently, are able to live fantastic and healthy lives regardless!

The Painkiller wrote:"Animals are mass slaughtered in a grotesque way with daily torture in their life before slaughter." - Pretty sure that doesn't apply to all or even most places meat comes from.

While the above quote is worded poorly, the animals in factory farms are indeed subjected to horrible living conditions every day, including:

-Close confinement in cages, crates, or lifetime confinement in indoor sheds
-Discomfort and injuries caused by inappropriate flooring and housing
-Restriction or prevention of normal exercise and most of natural foraging or exploratory behaviour
-Restriction or prevention of natural maternal nesting behaviour
-Lack of daylight or fresh air and poor air quality in animal sheds
-Social stress and injuries caused by overcrowding
-Health problems caused by extreme selective breeding and management for fast growth and high productivity
-Fast-spreading infections encouraged by crowding and stress in intensive conditions

In the United States, four factories produced 81% of the beef, 57% of the pork, and 50% of the poultry.

The Painkiller wrote:Not eating meat just to protest the method of obtaining the meat is completely idiotic, however. Pretty sure you can do a lot more and have a far bigger effect by doing something useful for the animal like trying to petition for more humane methods, or rallying support for measures taken in that direction. Not eating the animal really doesn't do shit for the animal.

Markets are controlled by consumers. If a consumer decides to stop consuming a product, there is less demand, and thus less production. It's rudimentary economics to understand that by not eating meat, you are in fact influencing the market in at least a very very small way. But you're also promoting a culture that is increasingly growing in number, and is estimated that 4.5% of the U.S. does not eat meat.

The Painkiller wrote:"Animals shouldnt be killed or slaughtered at all." - Animals kill and slaughter one another for food all the time. And I guarantee you the animal would probably prefer being raised by humans and being painlessly killed, rather than in the wild where it's probably more likely to be killed and eaten a lot earlier by a natural predator.

Agreed.

The Painkiller wrote:"If humans want meat they should turn to cannibalism" - lolwut

I wonder who the hell said this. Are you sure it wasn't... nobody?

The Painkiller wrote:"Meat causes cancer, illness, stroke and heart attacks" - Yeah, and not eating meat leads to zinc deficiencies (which is important for healthy skin and immune systems), it can cause iron deficiencies (since meat is a big source of iron, which is vital all round to good health, especially to the elderly or children), it's a primary source of protein which is vital to muscle and organ health, and is one of the main sources of Vitamin B (which is not found in any plant products).

And that is why you can't be what I call a "french-fry vegan." Any lifestyle choice with regards to what we eat needs to consider all the possible deficiencies that could results. There are SO many vegetarian sources of protein (eg. whole grains and legumes), and you can get enough iron as well if you eat smart. The only thing which is an issue for vegans is vitamin B12, which requires supplementation. Vegetarians can get enough B12 from eggs.

The Painkiller wrote:Now granted, eating meat to excess leads to adverse effects--eating anything to excess leads to adverse effects, plants included.

What defines excess? You would have to eat a LOT of veggies to the point that it would probably have to me injected down your throat with a tube in order to experience adverse health effects. Now go watch the movie Supersize me, and see how quickly your body deteriorates on processed meats.

In essence: don't be too quick to follow the dominant ideology that a diet largely composed of meat is ideal. There is too much contrary evidence, in favour of vegetarianism or at least an extremely reduced consumption of meat, that suggests otherwise.

To Sangranor, red meat can be harmful but only if eaten in excess. The studies about red meat are based on people with over the average consumption of red meat. The sources you post are based on results over a decade ago. A lot can change over a decade, at least in Europe. I have only been to the US five times and never really ate fast food (except for White Castles). But if it still looks in slaughterhouses like in the 90s in the US then I can agree that is could be very possible. But a human diet can allow red meat if consumed in moderate amounts. Moderate means maybe 3 or 4 times a week, not daily two times fast food. Because red meat is consumed in a less than healthy way, it has a bad reputation but red meat itself isnt harmful. It only can be harmful when eaten in excess like with many other foods. Just red meat turns out more harmful than other foods in excess.

Because factory pigs often have worms, I dont eat meat in general that come from factories. Their standards are way too low there.

To the thing about a vegan imposing that cannibalism is better, I have seen vegans make this remark especially in Europe where you got over-the-top radical vegans.

As I mentioned, the problem is that the majority of the meat produced in the United States is factory farmed, overly processed, and then consumed in irrational amounts. From all of the books I've read, dieticians and holistic nutritionists alike are suggesting a diet composed of 30% meat. I'm willing to believe, however, that this number could be increased for those, like yourself, who eat meat that is hunted and/or raised on a free-range farm.

You're right that eating red meat from a cow that has lived a more or less "natural" life has undeniable nutritional benefits when eaten in ideal proportions. But I don't think that's the argument here; the argument revolves against vegans and their revolution against the meat industry in its entirety. And from what I've discussed, and from what you've discussed, I think that many of their points are perfectly valid. Still, if vegans are rambling on about cannibalism, then it's true that you'll find idiots in any demographic of society.

My diet solely consists of meat(I eat it at least 4 times a day. ) and starches(Same number as meat, maybe more. ) I am incredibly healthy except for the cold/flu every winter and inherited ovary problems/hormone problems from my family(it is all inherited, not caused by hormones within meats.) I am not a fan of milk but I love eggs and chicken. I eat my steak almost raw and my pork chops usually cooked in oil. Veggies are not something that is usually apart of my diet but I occasionally take vitamins (Extremely rarely due to not seeing them on the counter.) I am extremely lazy and spend most of my time on the computer, or siting around doing schoolwork, but because I eat meat and starch I have extreme lower body strength and okay upper body strength, and even better at pulling or pushing.


Now onto my views!




The way they handle meats I do not care for but it is what that has to be done because I will not give up my meat at all. Plus, pigs are very clean animals even if they live in mud( and it is mud!) They use mud to help protect their skin from the harsh rays of the sun!(Not because they are filthy!) If vegans want to yell and through tantrums like small toddlers about animals being slaughtered when they know for a fact if we didn't have meat and all we had was veggies and roots from trees(The ones we can actually eat.) NO ONE in this world would have food, this world to be chaos and corrupted worse than ever. People fighting and killing over food so they can feed their family, and we probably wouldn't have what we have today(Machines, light bulbs, ect.) Because we would be too busy trying to find food for ourselves than trying to make life easier, even though we are ANIMALS(But with today's society, it is weening us more and more away from our natural predatory instincts. such as aggressive people are labeled "Has anger issues." and sent to a therapist.) we have intellect and more time than most species so we can work on the luxeries of life. Hunting and killing animals helped us humans to evolve to what we are today. For example, cavemen needed to make weapons to take down animals, they needed knives to cut open the flesh and eat it. They needed fire to cook the flesh, fat and muscle then dried out the bone and made alot of stuff. And, I do like the statement "Humans are probably one of the most cruel and violent animals in the world: War, brutality, crime against others of their kind." This is a true fact, humans in aggressiveness, dominance, cruel and violence are probably in the top 5, siding along with lion prides, wolf packs, hyena's and dingo's, ect. And the reason I say this is because humans work together to take down what they want to take down, they aren't a one man army, Armies today have the structure and dominance of a wolf pack, aggressiveness of a lion pride and teamwork of dingo's. What we lack by ourself, we excel with others. We are omnivores with predatory instincts and I'm sure at the beginning of time, or there was episodes where we only ate meat.

Just as a general response to Sangranor;

I made my little starting speech to show that I don't hold to any convention on nutrition. I have my own views and my own methods and they appear to work for me.

I'll be clear right here and now and say I don't know much of anything about nutrition. I wouldn't listen to me if I were to objectively read that post. I hold no doctorate nor have I even done cursory research into the topic. However I firmly hold that veganism, isn't the best and only way of going about things. There is obvious evidence to the contrary.

Sangranor wrote:So... bad hygiene causes the body to develop immunities against viruses and bacterial infections?

Exposure helps the body develop immunity. It's how vaccines work. I don't go burying myself in feces if that's what you're picturing. I'm talking more about the lack of a desire to wipe germs off the face of the planet with rubbing alcohol.

Sangranor wrote:...macronutrients... micronutrients....

I concede to your point. However I never advocated a single sourced diet like drinking beer forever.

Sangranor wrote:...factory farming...

It sucks. I don't like the idea anymore than you. I don't go to the store with the intention of getting myself a big ole' 12oz slab of suffering and misery. I go there to get delicious meat with little thought of it's source. In the grand scheme of things, you have to defeat the economics of meat before you can defeat the morality of it. It's delicious and people want to spend money on it, so there are going to be companies who are willing to provide. Those companies are going to try and make the most product for the least amount of money.

Once they perfect growing non-cognoscente meat products, I'm sure they'll switch to that and we can all be happy.

Sangranor wrote:...lifestyle CHOICE. So why scorn them for it?

I only scorn the ones who devalue human life over animal life, those who militantly tell me I shouldn't be eating meat, and those who deny otherwise hungry children of an otherwise good meal (I'm staring directly at the organic farming people). Other than that I get along. My last girlfriend was a vegetarian. We got along great on that point.

Sangranor wrote:some of us, apparently, are able to live fantastic and healthy lives regardless!

Exactly what I said in paragraph one ^-^

An interesting topic to say the least.

I have begun calling what I do, peskytarian veganism. This is what I do:

I still eat fish.
I eat primarily vegetarian with the exceptions of animal byproducts, but even that isn't a constant considering I use honey.
I also don't do processed foods.

Here's why:

I think your claim that we believe eating meat causes cancer is slightly off. The chemicals, pesticides, fertalizers, hormones, and anti-biotics that aren't natural to our diet do cause cancer. I'm also not pleased with the inhumane ways in which animals are raised and slaughtered, but I am not against killing animals. Just not a fan of the FDA approved methods. I have a friend who buys all Amish raised and slaughtered animals, and I don't even ask about their food anymore. I know it's healthy, and so I eat it.

I fish and I will be hunting soon, and I eat what I kill. I believe it's wrong to kill for sport, and as such I'd never kill unless I inteded to eat it. (Exception to that rule: mercy kills. If an animal is diseased or injured, yeah, I'll put it out of it's misery)

That's what I do, that's why I do it. I'm not against eating meat, I'm just not a fan of eating chemicals is all.

Lasriel: I hunt because that is how I get my meat. An adult deer here is probably a months worth of meat. And it is healthy too. I do eat factory slaughtered meat but in extremely rare cases (3 to 5 times a year fast food). I eat meat two times a day (breakfast and dinner) while for lunch I normally make a sandwich, eat a salad or dont eat anything. I am healthy. I am healthier than a vegetarian because I eat meat which makes my body robust and gives it a stronger immunity towards sickness. I am healthier than the average carni-/omnivore because I eat meat that is hunted myself and not factory farmed. Hunted meat is normally lower in cholesterol, fat and other things that bring disadvantages. Factory farmed meat doesnt strengthen your body and normally is the source of getting sick (overconsumption of it can cause heart attacks, strokes etc.). By the way, game is more tasty. :3

Aniihya wrote: I am healthy. I am healthier than a vegetarian because I eat meat which makes my body robust and gives it a stronger immunity towards sickness. I am healthier than the average carni-/omnivore because I eat meat that is hunted myself and not factory farmed. Hunted meat is normally lower in cholesterol, fat and other things that bring disadvantages. Factory farmed meat doesnt strengthen your body and normally is the source of getting sick (overconsumption of it can cause heart attacks, strokes etc.)

Right after the post that discourages using anecdotal evidence... sheesh.

1) You are healthy. Great. And?....

2) What is it about meat that exactly gives you a health advantage? What is "robust?" What is the precise nutritional benefit in meat that gives you a stronger immunity towards sickness that you can't get from other sources? Meat is full of protein and other essential vitamins like iron, zinc, and B12, yet we have already discussed how conscious vegetarians and vegans are able to get more than enough of those things. And if you know anything about food, nutrition and general well-being, you also know that good health and resistance to "sickness" is the result of a holistic lifestyle including exercise and stress management. Just look at Dave Scott, a vegetarian and winner of 6 World Ironman Triathlon Championships.

3) While hunted meat is lower in things like cholesterol and fat, you still need to be conscious of over-consumption since there is still a significant amount of fats that, when eaten in excess, can still make you susceptible to heart attacks and strokes. I'll remain adamant that humans weren't built to consume so much red meat, and most people learn the consequences later in life.

I agree with you in almost all of your statements except that eating meat gives you a stronger immune system. Given my limited experience with my own form of vegitarian/veganism, I'd say I am just as immune to diseases as you. I haven't been sick at all since changing my dietary habits. Also, every minor ailment, primarily headaches have been cured by holistic methods. I still fail to see how eating meat makes you healthier. I fully intend to eat my game, or take it to homeless shelters. I've had deer before and I love it soooo much. Hog too, it's just great, I know. But for me, it has to be hunted or I need to be able to see how it was raised and where.

Robust define in the way, I only have broken a leg (and lots of road rash) by having an accident with a motorbike at 180 km/h. It might be because I dont overconsume meat but I am comparing Vegans who have more of a tendency to be at the doctors office than vegetarians (who still consume fish and some animal products) and omnivores who have a moderate eating behavior. I have met many vegans who claim that they get all what people get in meat. But that is not possible since there are many different types of proteins where some are exclusively found in meat and it is very expensive to create these proteins without extracting them from animals. And due to the molecular build-up, swallowing pills and additives dont do the same. Anyone can eat what they want but vegans cant possibly tell me that they are healthier than me just because they dont eat meat or animal products. If a vegetarian told me he/she was healthier then there is a good chance they might be right. By the way, I once was vegan then breathitarian (meaning I went without food for 5 to 10 days) then vegan again until I found out that my lifestyle was extremely unhealthy because of this. I was constantly physically tired, sometime it led to depression caused by malnutrition. Then I went to a euomnivorous behavior and I couldnt be feeling better. Now I know how stupid it was to go so far in avoiding meat. But now I dont care about meat or not as long as I know that my meat is healthy and not factory farmed. And it is a very naive thing to think that you could stop factory farming without being a politician or being able to convince the masses that they could eat meat from alternative places.

Aniihya wrote:Robust define in the way, I only have broken a leg (and lots of road rash) by having an accident with a motorbike at 180 km/h.

You're defining the term robust as not being killed in a motorcycle accident? And the way you use it earlier seems to suggest that vegans cannot survive motorcycle accidents because they are not "robust." Do you know how stupid that sounds?

Aniihya wrote:I am comparing Vegans who have more of a tendency to be at the doctors office than vegetarians (who still consume fish and some animal products) and omnivores who have a moderate eating behavior.

Have you read anything that has been said on this thread? I'm sorry, Aniihya, but you can't still be making ridiculous claims like this without first addressing the claims by others who suggest that conscious eaters, vegan, omnivore, or whatever, can live a perfectly healthy lifestyle in combination with exercise and stress management. You don't even have any solid evidence to back up your point - is there an article or solid statistic that demonstrates that vegans are in the doctor's office more than omnivores?

Aniihya wrote:I have met many vegans who claim that they get all what people get in meat. But that is not possible since there are many different types of proteins where some are exclusively found in meat

That is entirely incorrect. Almost all foods on the planet contain every essential amino acid in the protein, but just not in the right quantities to support bodily function. Vegans can get a complete protein by combining different types of foods with differing quantities of amino acids, such as by combining pinto beans with brazil nuts. Some plant sources already contain a complete protein, such as quinoa, which is also high in iron and low in fat. (http://www.ajcn.org/content/59/5/1203S.long)

Aniihya wrote:By the way, I once was vegan then breathitarian (meaning I went without food for 5 to 10 days) then vegan again until I found out that my lifestyle was extremely unhealthy because of this. I was constantly physically tired, sometime it led to depression caused by malnutrition. Then I went to a euomnivorous behavior and I couldnt be feeling better. Now I know how stupid it was to go so far in avoiding meat.

Maybe you were extremely unhealthy because you did an extremely idiotic thing like going without food for 5 to 10 days. I'm sorry, but just because you made stupid decisions while following a vegan/breathiwtfian diet does not prove that veganism is unhealthy. This is just more anecdotal evidence, and bad evidence for that matter, with absolutely no weight in this debate.

Aniihya wrote:And it is a very naive thing to think that you could stop factory farming without being a politician or being able to convince the masses that they could eat meat from alternative places.

It is very naive to think that valuing and practicing an alternative lifestyle, one that avoids the consumption of factory farmed meat, has any determined goal to end the process of factory farming.

Yes that was twelve years ago and when you are in puberty you tend to do stupid stuff. I was naive, dim and not exactly reasonal nor rational during puberty and I regret being one of those asshole people who would prefer the life of animals over mankind back then. Now I could care less since I cant make a difference is it is optimistic in an utopian way to believe that you could stop factory farming by going vegan. I mainly eat game in moderate consumption due to the fact that a heritable disorder runs through the family and I try to keep healthy to avoid it. Whilst my grandfather had like five heart attacks before turning 60 and many others in the family ended up the same way (even my father suffers high blood pressure, high cholesterol and unhealthy amounts of Vitamin K and my brother has high cholesterol at the age of 18), I have not gotten anything yet and the doctor says it is highly unlikely for me to end up that way too. But therefore I have three problems since I have been a baby: asthma, extremely low blood sugar and metabolism four time the speed it should be but I have managed to keep those it the green zone for the past six years.

Yes: combining plants may contain all 20 essential Amino acids but plants do not contain 158 Amino acids that meats have. Depending of the human body, these remaining amino acids can contribute to the immune system as well as the durability of tissue of the human body. - Source: my German university biology book.

So on one hand you are right, on the other hand I am right since it is a hit and miss change (i.e. depending on human body) that non-essential amino acids can contribute to health.


Northern Soul: You are not exactly the best person for debate either. You often either start name calling when it goes long enough or you take an opportunist position instead of standing by your opinion.

Aniihya wrote:Yes: combining plants may contain all 20 essential Amino acids but plants do not contain 158 Amino acids that meats have. Depending of the human body, these remaining amino acids can contribute to the immune system as well as the durability of tissue of the human body. - Source: my German university biology book.

That is incorrect again. You should read the source that I posted, it has some myths about plant protein near the end. Your body uses a total of 22 amino acids to make the thousands of proteins that it needs:

- There are eight essential amino acids. The reason that they are essential is because your body cannot naturally synthesize them.

- The remaining non-essential amino acids are synthesized by your body and do not need to be consumed.

Thus, by ingesting the eight essential amino acids in sufficient proportions, your body has what it needs to synthesize the remaining amino acids to supply your body with an adequate amount of protein. It has already been proven scientifically that by eating a wide variety of plant food sources you can ingest proper amounts of the eight essential amino acids to support human physiological function. On top of that, plants are a rich source of many micronutrients and phytochemicals that have been proven to treat a wide variety of maladies from cardiovascular disease to prostate cancer.

The only thing you've proved is that meat is A source of complete protein. What the scientific field has discovered is that it's not the only source, nor the ideal source, but that, I'll say it again, a balanced and conscientious vegetarian/vegan diet can provide you with all the protein that you need and more.