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Lerro wrote:That would make sense, but plants don't just come from cooled lava and water that supposedly came from a random comet that passed by. In fact I haven't even heard of a plant growing from cooled lava. But going by what you said, does that mean that the center of the earth is made up of cooled lava?
Plants don't spring from cooled lava, but without the lava rock, less plants would grow. Soil formed from weathered lava rock is extremely fertile and contains many nutrients. The comet didn't pass by, it crashed directly into us most likely. And I don't know what the hell you're talking about with the center of the earth. Earth's interior has three layers, the semi-molten mantle, liquid outer core, and solid outer core, all of which are very hot, the inner core being the hottest. It's only solid because of the pressure it's under, which spikes the melting point. The outside of the Earth, the crust, is the only thing that's cooled.

What stuff? Are you referring to the energy as stuff?
Yes. Irrelephant anyway, the Big Bang wasn't an explosion.

Red shift wouldn't supply the big bang theory unless the actually did trace the planets' paths back to where they started, or where they believe they started. So far all of this stuff you said doesn't seem accurate, despite the fact that it's a provable fact. What is this other evidence?
The planet's paths have nothing to do with the Big Bang. It's the galaxies that are effected.
Since all matter started from a single spot that expanded outward, and still is, all of that matter will keep moving outward from that spot. You don't really notice it happening because it's relative, just like you don't notice Earth whizzing around the Sun at 67,000 mph. But once you look at the light from the galaxies being redshifted, and learn what direction they're all moving, you get a sphere of galaxies all moving outward from a certain point. You reverse all those arrows, and now you have them pointing at that certain point. That point is where it started. Where all matter started moving outward, clumping into stars and galaxies as it did.

Other evidence is the residual "noise" of the Big Bang that can be heard when you point a radio telescope in the direction of the point, things like that if you look far enough in certain directions you see galaxies in stages of development that correlate with distance from us, rather than just random development, and probably other crap I don't know.

It's not accurate to a hair's breadth. We can't even measure the actual age of the universe, we just have a range that we think it started during. This range is basically the edge of the observable universe, and we measure it by measuring the distance from us to the end of the Observable Universe. The Observable Universe is everything we can see, everything that formed close enough that the light it produced has had time to reach us. Things that are farther away in light years than the Universe has age years are things we can't see. It's hard to explain.

Do comet's usually float around with organic molecules in them? ORGANIC molecules? From a comet? That doesn't sound right to me man. Are you sure that's possible?
Organic molecules aren't molecules of life. They're molecules that can BECOME life. They're molecules of atoms like methane, carbon, oxygen... certain atoms that are found in life as we know it. Put together right, they form things called amino acids, which are the basic building blocks of, once again, all life as we know it. The molecules in Earth life are primarily carbon, which is why we're called Carbon-based life forms.
Organic molecules can come from anything, but they're usually found in space dust, comets, and very rare asteroids. They can't form into life without the protection a planet offers, though.

Alright, I agree with that. Can't become completely nothing, it can only be transformed right? So then what do we transform into when we die?
Our bodies are made of atoms, which tend to like to stay that way. Our heat leaches out, the energy of our cells goes with it. But the electricity of our minds, I think, floats out. It stays in a pattern that can think. It won't live forever, it needs jolts of electricity to keep thinking, but this pattern is what I think causes ghosts, out-of-body experiences, psychic phenomena, and all sorts of other things. That's me though, already proven science says when we die, we die, and that's the end of it.

Reach into nothing and get something out of it? You just said you can't get anything from nothing! Nothing comes from nothing you said. So then how do we reach into nothing and get something out of it? And don't refer to the box thing cause it's wrong. Particles are in the air aren't they? Couldn't they have gone from the air to the box?
You're referencing the box in the question, I have to reference the box to answer.
The box doesn't have air in it. This is a total vacuum. No atoms of any kind. Nothing solid.
So you have this box with no air in it, no objects, atoms, or molecules within it at all. There are no forces acting on it, either.
And we're observing this box. And we realize little particles are coming into existence. Just coming into existence. Randomly. Where are they coming from?
They're coming from the energy that's woven into the background of the universe. Particles are just little bundles of energy that resist each other, and this resistance makes them objects. This is the best I can explain it in layman's terms, but it's the meat of it. The energy in the box, which cannot be removed, creates the particles that spawn within it.
Technically, since this energy forms things without any prodding, we could eventually pull objects from this with the right science. Things we can use. Energy we can use. It's a pretty serious topic, they're looking into this energy as a resource of power in the future, since it has absolutely zero chance of running out.

Yes and no...ok.
:D

Got a dictionary...it didn't work. I'm also still confused as to why you believe this stuff. I didn't ask for a huge book on science, I asked what you believed in.
I believe in it because it explains the Universe in a way I can see, comprehend, and understand. It can link to a fact that I can have proven, not a deity that has yet to produce any reliable evidence of existence, who's existence is only supported by a book from practically the Stone Age, which is already filled with Creation stories proven false.

That should answer all questions.

Gods are, in my ideology, possible because of this pattern. If a massive amount of moving energy happened to hit this pattern at some point, which, given time, it most likely would, then a God could be created. And there are many such examples of moving energy, just in our own solar system. The Sun. The molten cores of planets. Organic energy on Earth. Storms on Jupiter. The kinetic energy of bodies in orbit, as well as asteroids and moons. The possibilities aren't endless, but they are also not few.
But the thing is, these gods would likely have no concern with us, or us with them. They would be there, but there's no real guarantee that they would want to communicate with us, or even be able to. They might operate on a completely different timescale, where a year is, to them, a second. They may have conversations with each other, and influence the well-being of our solar system as a whole, but we would be below their notice.
They would have power, I think. Just as I believe humans have psychic power in line with the power of their minds, I believe the gods would be able to influence things in line with the power of their forms. The Sun could push a planet slightly out of it's orbit, influence the formation of moons, and other such activities. Small stuff, to it. Earth might be able to, with it's smaller energy source, be able to help cultivate it's own life, control the path of asteroids, and influence it's own cycles of wobble, seasons, and ice ages.

I think it bears mentioning here that the "gods" you describe here have nothing in common with the God of Christian theology.

I never said they did ._. It's kind of the point.

That's me though, already proven science says when we die, we die, and that's the end of it.

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Based on what?

Well I'm prolly going to get gripped at and told I'm wrong about my views, but here goes nothing.

I personally believe that their is no great being watching over us, guiding our fates with an unseen hand. I believe that god did not create us in his own image; rather we created him in ours. Religion is a way to justify ourselves; to ease our fears of the final end. If we are able to believe that our actions now hold a greater sway on things that will happen after we have passed we are better able to cope with the hear and now. We believe that we will get a return on our investment so to say. God is just something we came up with to feel that what we do matters in the long run. To rationalize our existence. But what is the meaning of life? I say it is to LIVE. I know a lot of people will have a problem with my views and will criticize me for them, but this is all I know how to believe. By what I've seen and heard it's said that God has a plan for all of us and everything happens because He planned it that way. I cannot bear to think that. I decide my own destiny and when the time comes for me to finally lay my head down for the last time I hope I am not wrong.

I tend to agree with Vain. Religion to me seems to be the sugar coating of life to make it more bearable and/or the application of texts or icons to assert control over a group. Not to say it is inherently malicious in it's intent. The majority of religion stands today because people need somewhere to turn to for guidance and comfort. To which I have no problem with, but I have no personal need for.

As for God. I feel he is either uncaring, unable to help us or non-existent. So I wont rely on his intervention or guidance, rather, accept my fate is my own and do the best I can.

There are so many people of different faiths here on RPG--It's so weird, living in the American Southeast, to hear about faiths other than my own, staunch atheists, and all the different gnobbledy branches of Christianity. It's refreshing to see a healthy debate on the subject, rather than the usual "you aren't a Christian? WHYYYY?" that I get at school and the such.

As for me and my beliefs, yes, I do believe in a higher power, but my higher power is often very different from those that most people think of. Not good, not evil, not uncaring, not particularly loving, just--there. Balanced. And this higher power is what it wants to be, or perhaps what you want it to be, manifesting into all the different religions we've got today. It's not "God" who says that your religion is the right one--it's you.

I'm a pagan, though the classifications really end there, lest we go into the long, drawn out process of describing each of the faiths from which I pull my beliefs. Like a few people in this discussion, I believe in reincarnation and the existence of the human soul. For as long as I can remember (and that includes what few blips of memory I assume come from previous lifetimes), I've had two very distinct sort of guiding influences who have walked me through my upbringing. I suppose you can call them voices, though I don't always hear them.

But you know one thing I've noticed about them? They're perfectly content to go completely unnoticed by those people who want nothing to do with them, they don't scream to me to go out and convert convert convert, they tell me when I've been retarded and sometimes they just tell me to grow up and get over it where someone a bit more loving (the way many Christians view god) might have held my hand for at least a moment. I figure the above is because gods have better things to do than listen to you whine, and if you whine at them, well, they're going to make the attempt to shut you up. On top of those few facts, though, the other crazy thing is that they don't care whether I believe in them or not, though sometimes they claim to miss the company. I don't disregard science and the such in favor of their explanations, because they don't offer any. They just are.

The point, really, is quite simple: I don't doubt my gods, because they're right before my eyes (as it were), but who does? When will some completely unbiased mind, who has no opinion on any matter at all, stray into the path of this question and say, "oh, golly, well, judging on this and this and that--" and make a decision? Maybe mankind is too busy wondering about God and not busy enough worrying about how to conduct themselves, and honestly, which is the more important matter?

Anyway, that's just my two cents on the matter (or my three cents, perhaps?). Hopefully I haven't stepped on anyone's toes!

First off, a message to everyone: Don’t judge a religion by its people. Judge a religion by its Book.

To Vain and in general, to those who are unsure of God's existance

You have a right to your own beliefs. No ones going to rip on you or try to criticize you, at least I hope no one will, but I will ask some questions. You don’t have answer them, just dwell on them. And I only rip on misguided believers as witnessed in my first post in this thread.
Vain, I can sort of understand where you’re coming from, but what you’re saying would be relevant if you were right about one key thing, and that is our fate. I know enough about Christianity and Judaism to say: Christians and Jews do not believe their fate is controlled. As a Muslim, I certainly do not believe that my fate is controlled by Allah (God), so I’m curious why you would think believing in God would mean your destiny is predetermined?

We should LIVE, I agree with you, but we should live benevolently, in peace, and fairness with one another. But to simply LIVE, for me, it cannot be the meaning of life. I don’t claim to know what the meaning of life is, but I do believe that my life is worth something, and this life was given to me by God.

I could cope with the fact that God doesn’t exist. It would suck, but I could cope with it. On the other hand I would have no fear whatsoever. Quite the opposite of what you were thinking. I could do anything I want as long as I can get way with it, knowing that when I die, I’m simply dead. I was the worst guy in the world and I got away with the most awful crimes against humanity. Equality amongst human beings? Bullshit. It’s going to be equality amongst the strongest. So I better make sure I’m strong and have an army to back me, so I can do whatever I want. And when I die, my legacy goes with me to the grave. I didn’t do any wrong, cause there is no right or wrong. There is only living and I just tried to LIVE to the fullest. The only thing I’d be afraid of is probably dying before doing enough of what I wanted to do in my life. Essentially, to fulfill my endless desires, my passions. So what if I killed a lot of humans in the process, there are so many of us anyways; I did the planet a favor. Not that I would act like this in reality, I’m only making a example. Sadly, there are people like this in the world. Some of these people are our rulers, and I don’t think they believe in God. They likely worship themselves or the devil. I wouldn’t know, but I do know they use religion as a tool to coax the masses.

The nations of this world are not predominantly theocracies. A vast majority of our nations are not theocracies. I’m being redundant, I know, but I want to get this fact out there.

Here’s the thing though. I believe in God. So now I have to cope with the fact that I can’t just LIVE. I have to do more than just live if I want to be in God’s good graces. But God is fair, and He knows what is in our hearts. I don’t even know what’s in my heart, but I know God knows, and I hope it’s something He can approve of.

So would it be easier for you to cope with the fact that when you die, there is nothing? Is it because you think you’ve sinned a lot? Do you think that you can’t be forgiven?

For the most part, God does forgive those that repent and desist in their sinful behaviour. A story I heard which I think is a good example: A man, who committed a major sin- and this major sin was like a lion that could easily devour him, but he made tuaba(repentance in prayer to God) and Allah forgave him. However, later in his life he was devoured, not by any lion or major sins, but 50 little wolves, 50 smaller sins which all built-up to devour him. He did not make tauba for them. The important word here is, built-up. I don’t believe God would send you to hell for looking at a lady in the wrong way 50 times, so please, do not take this out of context. I don’t think I can simplify it anymore than this.

The intention and commitment should be there because it’s not easy to truly repent from the heart and be sincere, but Allah knows when you are sincere.

Remember that good deeds are heavier then bad deeds, if you commit a bad deed, you get ONE bad deed, but if you commit a good deed, you get 10 times that good deed, and even if your intention is to commit a bad deed, but you don’t do it for the sake of Allah, you get a good deed. Truly, God is most the fair.

If you ask me, it’s harder be religious than it is to be non-religious, and it’s going to get even harder for us believers.

I do believe there is a plan, a master plan if you will, and we are all part of it whether we like it or not. But that doesn’t mean we don’t have a choice. We decide our own destiny. Our fate will ultimately depend on the choices we make.

The way I see it, God didn’t force you to believe in Him, hence your disbelief. So clearly, you made a choice.

I made a choice too.

Vain, you wrote: “this is all I know how to believe”, so I say to you: Broaden your horizons because if this is all you know how to believe, then surely all of what you know must not be enough, cause in the end, it’s not me who convinces you or anyone of God. It’s going to be you, who convinces yourself.

Or maybe you don’t want to convince yourself. I hope that’s not the case.

There’s a saying that goes like this: If you take one step towards God, and He takes ten steps towards you.

To Lukisod,
I believe God cares and I believe he has helped us. And his help or guidance can be acquired very easily for most of us. He sent down the divine revelations of which the most authentic is the Qur’an. That’s what I believe. So why not pick up a Qur’an and read it? If you don’t believe in God, then you wouldn’t be reading his guidance, you would be reading a book written by some guy in the desert. I recommend the translation and commentary by Yusuf Ali.

And Omega_Pancake,
Toes will get stepped on. I say, as long as no one is killing each other, it’s all good. I for one am not wondering about God. I know he exists, and I do worry about how conduct myself. If one does not believe in God, then I believe that both wondering about God and how one conducts himself/herself are equally important.

My final bit of advice to you guys: Life is a learning experience, yet one can never know everything. The knowledge we gain, we must also apply it with the right intention.

Muhammad (PBUH) said: "Seek knowledge from the cradle to the grave", “He who leaveth home in search of knowledge, walketh in the path of God”, and my favorite… “Four things support the world: the learning of the wise, the justice of the great, the prayers of the good, and the valor of the brave.” Yeah, Frank Herbert used this one in Dune.

This is my last contribution to this thread. If anyone has any questions or wants to discuss Islam further with me, PM me. I'm not that active, but I'll get around it.


I ask Allah to forgive me if I have given any false information.

Peace be unto those that follow the right path.

Right.

Just a comment here, the Bible is a wonderful, wonderful story, from an Atheist perspective, and it contains many good philosophies. The thing is, so do the Buddha's teachings, a lot of the ones from Hinduism and Daoism, Confucianism isn't a religion, but it's still got things right... The list goes on, as it does with anything. They've all got little bits right, and they've all got quite a bit wrong.

The problem is, with all of these, there's also bad things or useless alongside the good. I believe this is the case for all of them, because they're, first off, not perfect, and second off, if it has religious teachings, I think it unnecessary. A waste of text. If it was pure, moral code, insights on how to treat others right and the little things you can do to stop big things from going wrong, then it would be completely useful. Instead, you have to pick through the mud for the little gold nuggets. This is my only constant problem with religions, that they bog down what good they have in them with their muck. Aside from that, nobody likes an extremist, and I'm no exception.

The only way I live my life in an everyday way that even hints at religious influence is the seeing of the Good and Bad, the Yin and Yang in everything. I don't exactly go to the extremes of thinking "This cup is more light than dark," but I often see it in personalities, things like religion, ideas, arguments, and media.

I find it strange that there is an all powerful being above us that controls everything as we know it, yet there are things like cancer, wars, violence and so forth

I'm not surprised by this whatsoever. Although I have to admit I don't believe in any deity from any religion, or any higher power at all, I am 100% Atheist in my views of God (Taoist in life philosophy). But part of my Taoist belief says that all things have necessary opposites. For us to appreciate health, we have to know what it is to be ill. For us to appreciate God, we have to understand the evil of the Devil, et cetera. If I were religious in that sense, I would be comfortable with wars, famine, inquisitions, disease, et cetera, because that negativity gives the positive a reason to exist. God would have nobody to save if nobody sinned. He'd have nobody to do miracle healings for if nobody was sick. He'd have nobody to answer prayers for if the world was all happy go lucky and no one had problems. God is what he is to the Christians . . . people often flock to God in their worst hour because they appreciate his presence when they're amidst complete darkness, when there's no lower you can go you realize where you could spend your life unless you make a change. I don't criticize Christians for their beliefs because of this; my qualm with Christians lies in their incorrect interpretations of the Bible.

Like I said though, I am totally atheist and prefer my life to be lived with the understanding that there are good and bad times for everyone and it's all the natural balance of the world, and that I do not need a deity on either end of the spectrum to save me from the dark; I can turn the lights on myself---that's why I evolved fingers.

There's one thing fundamentally wrong with all religions. It's not the texts, the people, their laws, or even their philosophies. What's wrong is that they all believe there is a god, and that god that they all believe in is a different being.

It doesn't make any sense. Let's say hypothetically, God is real. Whichever one you want, pick one. Now this God, decides to manifest itself, and prove it's own existance to a human. What happens if it proves itself to a human who believes in another god? Does that human interpret it as an evil being - their 'devil' - do they accept that they've gone insane, or in a flash do they blindly swap faiths and immediately begin following the word of this new deity?

This is the problem. If all religions were consistent and all said the same thing, I would be wwayyyyy more inclined to have a serious think about religion.

Another thing is there are many more galaxies out there than just out own. Billions. Now, somewhere, out there somewhere beyond the reaches of our sights there must be life. It would be, as far as my logical mind can see, that it's impossible for our planet to be the only one that holds life and in such vast quantities.

Now, suppose there is life out there that is as intelligent as humans if not more so. What if they have their own religions? With their own gods? Then what? The more you add to it, the less likely your god is the god.

I'll be frank. The most logical answer is that there is no god. We do not need one to exist. People created gods back when they noticed messed up weather patterns happening coincidentally at the same time they did something wrong, and believed it to be the work of some sort of supreme being who was pissed at them.

People can't explain everything. It's a natural thing to simply fill in the blanks. And I think that's what religion is; filling in the blanks. We don't have the answers to certain questions, so we cook up nonsensical jibber-jabber about floating people in the sky that know every and all that jazz.

The main thing on my mind though is this:

why can't the religious accept evolution?

I've never understood this. If God did indeed create us at some point, surely rather than making us with his own force, he created the means for our existence to come into bloom, and then simply set things in motion.

Has anyone heard of the 'watchmaker' theory?

I've heard the Watchmaker theory. The theory states that humans, and life, are complex like the inner workings of a clock. Anything complex must be created, like a watchmaker diligently creates a watch with his tools. Therefore, something like humans, must be made by a more intelligent being (like the watchmaker is more intelligent than the watch). Their usual example is the eye, how complicated it is biologically (really, however, a watchmaker doesn't put the face of his watch upside-down, and the human eye is upside-down, the brain interprets the jumbled message and turns it right-side up before we perceive it---this makes it imperfect, because it's an unnecessary step our brain shouldn't have to take). So, what, is our watchmaker a bad watchmaker? Does he put useless parts in us for no reason as if the watchmaker decided to put an extra second-hand and two more hour hands, like the appendix we no longer use, the gal bladder we can do without. . . the tonsils that are utterly useless? Or is it more likely that we used to use these things, and we've simply evolved environmentally to the point where we no longer require them. We're not eating raw meats or other toxic things that require as much filtering.

Another thing that bothers me is Christians being selective about their beliefs in the Bible. You either believe what's written or you don't, if it's the word of God. I've gotten 'times have changed', when referencing the traditions of Leviticus, which say that men sitting where a menstruating woman has sat are unclean for 7 days, or that a woman cannot have two husbands or an affair, but a man can have more than one wife (in several instances in the Bible), or that gays should be stoned to death and so should prostitutes. How can times have changed for God? He didn't make the Bible with a disclaimer "rules can change depending on era". . . if God is responsible for the rules of the Bible, then take the whole thing or take none of it. That drives me absolutely batty.

Or people adding things to the bible that never existed, THAT makes me nuts too.

Heads up Christians---Mary Magdalene was never called a whore at any time in the Bible. Find me the passage if you believe that, and I'll find you the excerpt from the retraction of the Vatican in the mid 1900's that said her being called a prostitute was made up, never written in the Bible, and they apologized for slandering her (started by Pope Gregory to keep women in their place in regards to religious influence).

I don't mind Christians if they're -smart- Christians. Believe what you believe, but do so with a respectable level of intellect. Half the Christians I know haven't even read the Bible (okay, let's be honest---far more than half).

Totally agree.

The thing I hate with the bible is that it's so self contradictive. God is the most loving and forgiving, yet sin and feel his eternal wrath. Satan will use all his unholy powers to tempt you, but it's your fault for being mortal and thus weak to his powers.

Thing I love admitting to Christians and the like is that I used to be a Satanist. Not with those LaVayan posers. I hate those guys. I mean the theistic ones. It was pretty great actually. All their philosophies taught you to always question what you see and hear, and decide what you believe - not what you "should" believe. The thing it stressed most of all was to question absolutely every piece of text from that was it's own (the black book of Satan, for example. Essentially 'another bible, written by the other guy.'" They stressed that if you don't believe something, in whole or in part, you must work hard to give valid reasons that you can support in an argument. More than that they were always applying science to the religion as well, anything they could explain with science they did -- even evolution. They put it down to Satan coming up with that gem. Genetics and all the works. :P It was this free-thinking environment that made me decide that I couldn't believe in religion. I just physically could not wrap my mind around a being that could always exist and was supposed to lord over the world. No pun intended.

If Christianity had never had existed, then the world would be a better place. Not just because their twisted morality [not all of them, some of them are okay], but because they would never have held science back a few hundred years. :)

At the end of the day, I don't think the question should be "is there a God?" I think it should be "Should there be a God; Do we really need one?"

I agree and disagree with you. The Bible is contradictory for several reasons, the biggest is that it wasn't written by one person from one perspective, it's a collection of writings found over a period of time written by many people with different views on contemporary problems of the time. Another is that the Old Testament portrays God as wrathful, vengeful, angry, and violent. The New Testament tries to portray him as more kind hearted.


LaVeyan Satanists aren't posers, they run the original church of Satan. Satanism originally was NOT theistic, and generally those who portray it as theistic are considered posers because that wasn't the point of Satanism. Satanism is the opposite of Christianity in that they believe you should indulge yourself. They still look down upon violence against women or children, where Theistic Satanists are often tied to occult killings or ritualistic rape and murder. A basic difference exists in the Satanic Bible, which states that 'if a man comes into your house, ask him nicely to leave. If he doesn't leave after you have made a good effort to let him go peacefully, strike him' (roughly). Instead of 'turn the other cheek', they preach an eye-for-an-eye. The embodiment of Satan is meant to be figurative in Satanism. It is supposed to be the 'dark force that permeates the world and is present in all cognitive beings'. . . the want for sinful acts like pre-marital sex, drinking, cavorting---whatever brings you pleasure. They believe the Christian attempt to become divine by abstaining from earthly pleasures is absurd.

The religion is highly misunderstood. I'm Taoist myself, like I said, though.

I would like to say, I know God exists.
Why? because I witnessed God.

No I did not physically see God, that is not possible.

I woke up one morning (about 20 years ago) and pondered what I was going to do that day...
Suddenly the room around me slid apart, my head opened... my mind was free of its physical bond to my body. What I witnessed shattered my world. I had no concept of time, It was every moment at once, no beginning or end. When I returned to my body it was impossible for my physical mind to retain all that I had become... it wasn't until 2 years ago when I saw a video on Jill Bolte Taylor, that I realized what had happened, I came full circle and my "state of shock" over the ordeal I witnessed finally subsided.

For a long time I did not know if I was blessed or cursed.
I did become anti-religious due to this experience, there was nothing in these books that was truthful... save one thing. Love one another as you love yourself.
Some of you will seek out there for truth... you will go looking for answers in different countries or seeking answers from other people. Some will do drugs and others will try meditation.

No, you will not find it. These things will never bring you to commune with God

The truth has always been inside yourself.
The truth is, you are me, the only difference is our perspective. You ask how can this be? Our physical bodies is what bonds us to this concept of time, its the way our brains work and compartmentalize events to make sense to our thinking processes.
The truth is we are a part of the higher consciousness.

Why does murder happen? if there is a God babies would not die? what logic is this???
Humans are animals, and have the freedom of our physical minds to contend with. What makes you think that if there is a God, we would be automatons? The Human condition allows us to make choices, I experience this in my body as well as yours, what evil I do effects myself. Behind this physical curtain, I am one, the same entity.

Yes you may reject this, that is your privilege.
Take it for what it is.
It is truth, I do not want to sell it, I do not want to have seminars, I do not want to write a book on it.
Words can never express what I had witnessed.
Just enjoy your perspective, make the most of the experience, I will see you back on the other side.
This all I will speak of this. I have written about my experience several times. I have no motives to convert you into anything as I reject all religion. Find the truth inside yourself.

UnderINK wrote:I agree and disagree with you. The Bible is contradictory for several reasons, the biggest is that it wasn't written by one person from one perspective, it's a collection of writings found over a period of time written by many people with different views on contemporary problems of the time. Another is that the Old Testament portrays God as wrathful, vengeful, angry, and violent. The New Testament tries to portray him as more kind hearted.


LaVeyan Satanists aren't posers, they run the original church of Satan. Satanism originally was NOT theistic, and generally those who portray it as theistic are considered posers because that wasn't the point of Satanism. Satanism is the opposite of Christianity in that they believe you should indulge yourself. They still look down upon violence against women or children, where Theistic Satanists are often tied to occult killings or ritualistic rape and murder. A basic difference exists in the Satanic Bible, which states that 'if a man comes into your house, ask him nicely to leave. If he doesn't leave after you have made a good effort to let him go peacefully, strike him' (roughly). Instead of 'turn the other cheek', they preach an eye-for-an-eye. The embodiment of Satan is meant to be figurative in Satanism. It is supposed to be the 'dark force that permeates the world and is present in all cognitive beings'. . . the want for sinful acts like pre-marital sex, drinking, cavorting---whatever brings you pleasure. They believe the Christian attempt to become divine by abstaining from earthly pleasures is absurd.

No! NO! NO!!!!!!!!!

That is the most offensive, unresearched, thing I have ever f******ng read! The LaVeyan "church of satan" was started in the early 70's or 80's by Anton LaVey as an Atheistical "religion."

Satanism is NOT the opposite of Christianity, the only ties it really has with it is that the bible wrongfully portrays satan and all his kin as evil bastards.

Theistic Satanist would NEVER perform occult killings, ritualistic rape or murder. Have you ever fucking read their texts? Satan looks down on self-harm as if it was a terrible sin, [not that he acts as such, he tries to take all those who do from the path of it, and help them]. If a Satanist were to hurt people, rape, murder, etc, Satan would not be happy with them. Torment in hell would be ready for them, indeed. Especially when it is done wrongly in his name!

How come when ever isolated events of stupid teenagers going around killing people and blaming it on Satan, you idiots suddenly call that Satanism? But the moment Christians start bashing homos, back when they used to bash Blacks [back during the slave trade] and back when they used to travel the world and KILL ANYONE WHO WOULD NOT TURN TO THEIR RELIGION. You cannot deny that. It is a recorded, historical FACT. Whereras what you are static is illresearched, bias, AND POORLY CONSTRUCTED OPINION!

Oh yeah, "if a man comes into your house, ask him nicely to leave. If he doesn't leave after you have made a good effort to let him go peacefully, strike him'" That's from LAVEY'S book. Not the Al Jilwah! It is NOT the belief of Theistic Satanists.

Now before you go being an insultive little b*rd again, DO YOUR EFFING RESEARCH!!!!!!.

Now i'm going to edit all the swearing. Hold on. There we go.




Anyway.

You wanna believe in God? Fine. Do it. That's fine. I can not, nor can anyone else, make you change your mind. All I;m saying is, when you want to defend your religion, do so with half a brain, and use arguments that are based off of something fallible, and not your own opinions. If God was proven, right here, right now. I don't care which God, any of them will do, then sure, I'd become religious. Because I'd know -- not believe, but know -- that there is something there. But there is no proof. Man and his mind are not proof. I don't want to diss anyone, but whatever sights you may see as god, could all to well and far more likely be your own mind just playing with you.

Anyways. Offskies now.

This is kind of a loaded topic, but I'll impart my OPINION. Let's just clarify that now. I'm not SURE whether any religion is right. The presence of an omnipotent figure is the basis of almost every faith based belief. The act of persecution by such figure, which, only happens if you go against their edicts, is the main basis of older religions appeal. Saving your soul from eternal damnation and what not. After the new testament was founded the focus shifted, and the Christian religion started seeing small changes. What I find funny, is that twenty years ago no preacher would even tolerate the concept of gay marriage. Now, you have some religious figures saying they're in a grey area. Another point, if all this religious based holy power exists, why aren't priests curing cancer with faith? Why are there no divine of the Christian god, walking this Earth? They were everywhere about 2,000 years ago, miracles and saints, so where are they now? Why aren't large forest fires, earthquakes, and otherwise unnatural disasters averted in his name? His power supposedly divided a sea to save the Jews from persecution. Where Africans any less good or holy than the Jewish? If you think so you're stupid. The jews were slaves to men, just as African Americans were in colonial America. Where was their divine rescue? The reason the bible works is that there is no documented historical papers that tell the word by word discussions of those who published and issued the bible.

Not attempting to piss people off to bring in more "faithful". Seems like a back stabbing on some old set in stone virtues directed from the "good book"(Or the bible.) I don't know, seems kind of sketchy. Not to mention the fact there are so many different versions of the church now, that it would be hard to tell what is the generalized message. Most of my religious problems though, are based on this small observation. People are herded into one set of beliefs determined by...people. No god, has come down in the last fifty years and handed anyone an update on how things are. Like the old testiment was a beta version of the bible. I honestly think religion was created to help control the masses. May seem like I'm paranoid or whatever, but alot of people had involvement with the bible's creation. Constantine's instatement of Christian religion, or rather the monotheistic belief could have had alot to do with altering what those followers truely wrote or told. They were kind of switching from Roman gods to Christ. Besides that fact, God didn't write the bible. Supposedly he stopped to drop of the ten commandments. But he couldn't stop by to give us a book to live by. So...how is the bible "his word". It's the stories of a few old priests and believers. Are you really gonna put your faith in people or God? Because I hate to break it to you...the bible is a work of man. So is every other religious atmosphere, mandate and tradition. Every one. Otherwise, a proven god would exist and this question would be pointless.

Let me say this, I don't mean to offend anyone. If I did, I'm sorry. Personal belief is your right. Take it easy.

Teh Wing

Hey wing, the whole "parting the sea" thing has a good theory behind it. There's some large river somewhere supposedly near where that is believed to have happened, and it's documented that every couple of years or so that river actually completely dries out for weeks. The general idea is that the story, like all of them in the bible, is just a heavily exaggerated case of "right place, right time."

:)

The theory about the plagues and the parting of the sea are pretty much -nearly- proven by the Santorini volcano that erupted simultaneous to all of those happenings. We know because we can date what pharaoh presided over Egypt at the time of Moses' living, and it coincides with the volcano eruption. All ten plagues can be explained by effects of this massive volcano, and so can the parting of the "Red" sea, which is actually the "Reed" sea, which is a much smaller body of water that could have easily been removed of water in the event of a tsunami, or various other explanations for it that are feasible. A good explanation is provided in the program 'Decoding the Exodus'.