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Character Depth Test

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Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.25 INK Postby Patcharoo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:06 pm

This is a fun little challenge to find out how much depth your characters have.

Describe the following character WITHOUT saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession or role was in their story. Describe this character to your friends like they ain't never heard about your character before.


The more descriptive you can get the more depth your character has.

And an example.

Drakus Flavaar is someone who struggles with morality. His choices are usually swayed by the opinions of others despite what his intent might be. He has a habit for trouble, usually causing it, but a sense of guilt always stops him from stooping too low. He has a moral code despite any bad behaviours and dislikes killing.
He is smooth in speaking and usually fairly calm and logical. While normally he tries not to care for others he has a weakness for seeing a woman in trouble. He's self-confident and tries to maintain a pleasant conversational manner. While he isn't a particularly funny man, he enjoys testing his wits on others.
Certainly not the most heroic of people, he ultimately has good in his heart, but his concerns will always favour himself and his friends before strangers.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Script on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:31 pm

Hatred is a strong word, and the old man always taught never to hate. Old man's dead now though, and when all you've got in the world is a faithful hound and a grudge, well... there's only so much solace you can find in your old pal. Confusion and young love blossom in dark places, but the more blossoms you carry the easier you burn. There's only so far you can be dragged through the mud and rain before something breaks and even the embrace of a faerie queen can't fix you.

Nobody sees your tears when it's raining, and you like it that way, don't you? Nowadays it's all about looking strong, not feeling it. Old man would've said that true strength is to embrace your weakness and face it head on. Old man's dead now though, so he's clearly not always right.

There's still something in you, though, isn't there? Something that screams bloody murder whenever a broken body hits the ground and tells you that's not what the old man would've wanted. Old man might be dead, but there's more than a little piece of him in you, kid.

You've buried a lot of memories. You've buried a lot of people. You can't sit on those graves and weep forever, and you know it. The spirits know it too, and they'll find you eventually. Even when you've lost your way, every step is one step closer to finding it again, just keep going. That's what the old man said, anyway.

Old man's dead now though. He's been dead a while.

You left your strength in his grave.

Your smile in the one beside him.

Your childhood split between two.

Your heart, though. Your heart took pride of place in an empty hole in the ground.

Will the rest of you follow, or are you gonna wake up any time soon? There's more to you than ghosts, kid. You've got a future if only you can let go of the past in order to grasp it.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby NotAFlyingToy on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:34 pm

Anzo uses guns n'shit.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Lifecharacter on Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:36 pm

Isn't that pretty much just the "Personality" section of a character sheet with strict rules against including things that might explain certain aspects of their demeanor like "having always been doted on..." or "since they assumed leadership..."?

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.50 INK Postby AugmentationAudit on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:13 pm

Challenged by Imehal to do this for Horatio Castle: Speedwrite, in exactly 30 minutes.

Horatio Castle is a study in contradictions. He is a man who has been bent and reformed by time into something completely different. He was once an idealist with a firm and apparently unshakable morality. He held firm to his beliefs and put a great deal of stock in humanity; he valued life above all else, and took his oaths to do no harm with utter seriousness. This rigidness of thought often put him at odds with the more open minded of his peers; it was often thought that he couldn’t see the darker side of life.

Having been isolated from children his own age while growing up, he often struggled making friends, though the friendships he made were those that would last. He possesses a duality of nature that comes from old money and old charitable intent- he has never wanted for anything, and yet spent his formative years in the Third World with his parents, who aimed to heal the great divide in healthcare.

He approached love with the same single-mindedness as he approached his morality; deeply, completely, and unshakably. His chosen partner meant the world to him, and they married. However, a conflict of interests arose some few years down the line; Horatio’s morality, his pacifism and the desire to preserve life was at loggerheads with his husband’s belief that sometimes a threat must die so that the innocent would live.

It was a testament to Horatio’s notion of love that they separated, but remained married for many years before reuniting as a couple once more. To Horatio, love is everlasting, and though his husband spent a great deal of time a very long way away, he never wavered where it counted. In terms of sex, he wandered on occasions, but Horatio views love and the purely physical act of sexual gratification as two completely different things.

Whether this is a product of his upbringing, a part of his homosexual identity, or simply Horatio’s own unique take on his personal sexual identity is unclear. However, he is by no means liberal or particularly promiscuous. He has never slept with a woman, and aside from his husband has had a total of three sexual partners over the course of about two decades.

He has only ever been unfaithful in terms of love once. After a crippling and likely terminal diagnosis, and an eye-opening visit to the shores of a disaster, Horatio became embittered. His values broke and changed and the upheaval of his life brought about a crushing depression. In this new mindset, Horatio first encountered true shame; he distanced himself from friends and family for this reason, though when asked he would never be able to articulate such things. He is not a man who has the strength (or lack) of will to commit suicide, though for the first five years after his diagnosis he desired nothing more than death.

Horatio, when faced with such a dilemma, and when mired so deep in his own mind that his thoughts turn towards death, reacts in an unusual manner. He cannot justify killing himself, as the residuals of his values still remain; instead of directly harming himself, he chose to associated (and love) a man who was almost sure to murder him. He courted death in a subtle way- playing with a psychopath and justifying his actions by stating that his would-be murderer needed him. He wrapped his attempt at self-slaughter in the guise of love, because that was the only way such thoughts were acceptable to him.

Over time, Horatio loses the desire to die, but the man who emerges has a wholly different morality than that which he possessed in his early twenties. No longer afraid to kill, and possessing a great deal of power, Horatio’s classification of the value of life shifts to match his husband’s. He is not afraid to organise the deaths of others to protect those who he classes as worthy of protection, and although he does not take the task of arranging assassination lightly, he has past the point where he would let a murderer walk the streets in the belief that taking the life of an evil man was wrong.

It is unclear whether Horatio Castle can ever be classed as a ‘good’ man. His actions can be deemed as evil or righteous depending on the morality of the person looking, and he doesn’t seek to classify his state of being once it comes to the fore. He is not a casual killer; he still regrets, and weights each death against the benefits, but there is no denying that he will take a person down in retribution for potential harm.

He remains a man who loves deeply, and over time he becomes a man who will do anything to protect those who matter most to him. He finds a reason to live first in a psychopath, and then in a child; he becomes a father and through that becomes a husband again.

Horatio is a proud man, but many things that others would class as making a man weak Horatio embraces, and he is not above lowering himself to remain undetected in society. Despite having an extensive staff compliment, he is hesitant to ask for help, even from those who he reportedly trusts; if he requests assistance, it is usually for the sake of his daughter.

He has a slightly strange manner of speaking; he tends to listen to everything that’s being said, before responding to everything, rather than simply commenting on the last sentence spoken. He is an information gatherer by nature, and tends to like to know as much as physically possible about the people he’s talking to, to the point of seeming intimidating at times.

Horatio has a fondness for Shakespeare, lavender and salmon. He cannot abide rats, and blunt knives make him angry. Horatio is a truly terrible cook, though he has never been able to work out why.

He becomes a man who always has an agenda, but in manipulating the perfect world into being for his daughter, he does a great deal of good for those he picks up along the way. He loses his intolerance for immoral people, and as such works well in the darker sides of life.

In his crowning (final) moments, Horatio uses his own keen grasp on logic, as well as his honed ability to debate, to outsmart one of the greatest threats to his ideal world. However, in doing so, he pays the price of his life.

When Horatio Castle dies, it’s as he organised- he dies by the hand of his psychopath, however, it’s a death of his choosing and he dies both happy and fulfilled.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Script on Tue Mar 12, 2013 8:51 pm

AA - you did that in thirty minutes? Goddamn. You never cease to astound me with how good a writer you are. Character depth and 'wholeness' is something that I've always struggled with because I go through a ton of ideas and concepts and don't spend the time to develop each one more than superficially, with a few exceptions who get more explored. But I don't know any of my characters as well as I can now know Horatio from what you just wrote in thirty minutes.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Rulke on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:08 pm

Sirad is a strange specimen she was originally innocent but head-strong and sadly too assertive to ever have stayed in Eden. This was especially apparent with the advent of Eve because she refused to take Adam and when he forced him to give into his lustful demand, she bit him hard. Thus God chose to create the next woman out of Adam's rib. It was here trouble began, she witnessed what was essentially her sister be broken by someone who preferred to dominate woman, even if he had to rape and sexually abuse them. It became so hard that she would seek another's company having only had a kissing kiss with Eve, when Adam was away. She chose the Arch Angel Samael and when their affair of sorts were discovered she damned herself rather than be forced to fall, leaving Eve in the Garden alone with the real monster.

This is the time she spent in the infernal pits as a lowly demon construed to lust and forced to atone for what was merely her desires and wants. As time passed she channeled her lust and temptations into beings of pure sexual hunger, ones that would be her avatars so to speak, practicing her dark sinister magics until she manipulated into existence the Succubi and the Inccubi the male of and female of hedonistic qualms, to have intercourse and exist in one form, whether to bring forth a child or take the souls of men and woman who succumbed to their own wants.

As she practiced on these forms, she saw an opportunity round about this time Lucifer was imprisoned thus she planned and schemed all through this time, before finally taking the throne with a new form and delegating Hell to the Princes so she could live without worry. It was round about this time her creations caught the attention of the some princes especially that of Asmodeus, as Lilith she challenged him to a duel. Mocking her audacity as he was unaware of her cunning, he had his succubi be there, rather than strike him, she conjured her spell to trap him forever within his own, this would seal him and make Lust her circle. Not only did she control Hell but her own element.

It was then she used her wiles to see into Eden and obsessed daily over torment she saw her sister put through, the kind that could not be written, the demon actually cried so often. Finally she did the one thing which was against everything, she defiled Eden in by sending a Serpent and tempted Eve, both took a bite and Eden fell.

For a time she kept an eye on her, seeing how angered she was, how she slowly became consumed with hate and then metamorphose into a demonic aberration of half-man half demon, not ever on the scale of balance, she was a cruel vindictive being who never took another person, but destroyed so many lives.

Next came the creation of the vampires, now being in control of Hell she studied the Phlegethon and performed deadly experiments on the people and demons, it was during one of these she created the first vampires mixed with thousand corpses of demon and human their blood was constantly boiling, thus they hungered always for it, to keep them from dying.

The only event worth mentioning after this was a deal she made in Medieval time it had been a time she had walked on earth in her various incarnations, and ruined many people with her antics but she discovered an ancient evil lurking deep within the caves and made a deal, a deal where she would give him a circle and be protected forever by what she did. Two months later her comuppance came as she was finally banished due to her mistaken understanding, she believed could corrupt a Knight but neglected he had a son thus it came to be Lilith was banished, shackled and sent into Hell as powerless remnant forced to forget everything. Due to her actions in the past no one knew different since Hell was controlled by so many now, thus Lucifer losing power was never known.

It was almost a year ago in modern times a girl lovelorn and naive learnt of how to summon a demon, she had no idea of what would happen, to her the idea was to gain the love of boy, she felt never looked at her. In desperation she went down the names until one stuck out, so in the depths of the night, she summoned Lilith. Unknown to the girl this was mistake, not only was she cunning, but all the more she had been wishing freedom for centuries, and with the circle broken, the girl was possessed. This was the last anyone heard of the girl, for with this action the soul was in Lilith's grasp.

Then it was with that girl she was free, but being of the power she once had, they were shackled, having accepted this she became apathetic even bitchy because she had risked so much before, she had plagued Europe with unending terror, but the world had changed around her, and she was tired of this. Maybe this was how she fell in love first with a sadist called Azo then a young teenager called Momiji, these days were probably her most humane she occasionally tried to do deals, but after some times she feared, worried that the body she had was trying to fight back and make her into a joke, the girl who knew her heart had no idea what the demoness felt, they made-love for months, but after saving someone she had enough.

Arriving to a witch called Saranna she begged to have her humanity, kindness, goodness and purity removed and placed into a new body. The ritual was preformed and thus you had Lilith (Pre-Fallen) the memory of Eden and purity.

It was around this time Sirad found Eve, after some realization brought on by the her powers returning to full, she made-love into the magical infused area while the very energies danced around them in provocative fashion.

Thus the relationship was founded and Lilith took the form of the girl slowly realizing day by day how powerful she had once been, her memory having been destroyed before, she realized she was Lucifer and how much power she truly had. Many deals were made, she actively grew in power day by day, many secrets awakening from infinite slumber, the Kingdom of Hell reopening to her as was the chance to do more.

During this time Adam returned and threatened to do more, he's been quiet ever since, but Sirad suspects they will see much more of him, only time will tell though.

The next big thing to happen was the marriage to Eve baptizing her in Boiling Phlegethon a deal was struck not only would Sirad give a child to Eve, she would marry her and now the story will continue, with the impending demonic civil war and the princes growing antsy everything but her growing blossoming desires for Eve keep growing. Only Eve can kill her now, only Eve has her soul Sirad in now in the hands of her lover, alive until her sister dies.

With all this certain things were decided, Sirad took on a form of a man to impregnate her sister and Sirad nulled the Alliance of Heaven and Hell thus allowing demons to freely attack angels wherever they wished, what came of this is still to be known, but somewhere deep in that realm twins shall be born and though Sirad makes many alliances and deals, the most powerful one shall be the Detente. The question you need to ask is very simple is it balance she wants or is it power?
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Patcharoo on Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:14 pm

Lifecharacter wrote:Isn't that pretty much just the "Personality" section of a character sheet with strict rules against including things that might explain certain aspects of their demeanor like "having always been doted on..." or "since they assumed leadership..."?

The intent is to see how well you can describe a characters 'character' without detailing their appearance and what they do. The idea is that a well developed character will have a wide variety of things you can say about them, while a more two dimensional character will not.

The idea is essentially that a good character is not described by how they look or what they do, but who they are.

Unfortunately feel like I've misaimed this.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby AugmentationAudit on Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:43 am

One of the more annoying things about me is how much I know about my characters, Script. XD When it comes to my core set (any of my characters who have captured my interest for long enough to explore) I make a point of knowing pretty much everything about them.

As for the speed of writing; I'm either lightning fast or not at all. XD

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Bosch on Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:08 am

While I think this is an interesting idea I feel it's flawed. I reckon the best way to explore a character is through their past and actions they have taken. To me this offers a deeper insight into a character than attempts to describe their personality can. Additionally appearance can be very important to some characters for example explaining why Quasimodo is the way he is without saying the word hunchback is a tall order. This is not a weakness of the character rather it shows how external forces impact on the psyche and circumstances of a character.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Patcharoo on Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:48 am

An alternative thought of is a 'request' type thing. RP with a players character, then afterwards write a description of the impression you got from them (or maybe do it in a group).

Only thing is hurt feelings might happen.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jag on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:32 am

This is based, of course, on part of the RedLetterMedia Mr. Plinkett review of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace wherein people were asked to describe Han Solo using the same criteria and then asked to do the same with Qui Gon Jinn. They were able to say quite a bit about Solo and virtually nothing about LIam Neeson's character, displaying that there was literally very little characterization other than "old mentor Jedi character" in the film.

I think one issue here is that you don't get the same outside objectivism when you're asking someone to describe their own character. After all, the writer created that character and is intimately familiar with all the details of that character's beliefs, credos, psyche, attitudes, personality, and just about anything else that you can imagine. As I read about some of these characters, ones that I have seen and followed up on by reading IC content, I am shocked to how little of the details described here I picked up on from the actual RPing.

In other words, a writer is able to say a lot about a character that they know that isn't necessary something they've shown through characterization in RP. It would be more akin to having George Lucas explain his idea for Qui Gon Jinn rather than the character that was portrayed on the screen in the end product.

I plan to pick a character or two that I've seen in the Multiverse and give an example of what I mean, hopefully later today. Excellent discussion, Patch, thanks for bringing this one up. And if any of you haven't watched the RedLetterMedia Star Wars reviews, I highly recommend them.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Marionette on Thu Mar 14, 2013 3:12 pm

While this can be beneficial and fun, I also feel that it's flawed. What you need to know about a character is dictated by the type of game or story said character is in and what role said character plays. I also feel that "depth" is a sum total sort of thing, and professional background and sometimes even appearance (take Bosch's example) can be important factors. Further, "more description" does not necessarily mean "better description." You could write a novel about your character's inner self, but if every bit is cliché or irrelevant, I wouldn't say you have a deep character on your hands. It's not a purely quantitative thing.

It's also not necessarily something a description, however detailed, can always communicate. For this reason, I make a personality description (which this has elements of, together with history) optional half the time. Jag has some pretty good points. The trick is not how much you can write about your character outside of a game or story but how well you can get other people to understand your character through his or her actions within it.

Again, I think this a fun exercise. I just caution people to be wary of "tests" that are supposed to tell them how deep or interesting or original their characters are.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Brychette on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:06 pm

On the surface, James displays an immature sort of personality. He is decidedly stubborn and strong-willed, frequently letting his pettiness and vindictiveness get the better of him; he is somewhat selfish and remarkably self-absorbed, generally acting more out of self-interest than any sort of philanthropy as well as taking several opportunities to stroke his own ego or flaunt his position. He is largely hostile towards figures of authority and feels little incentive to follow orders with which he disagrees, earning him the distinction of being a loose cannon of sorts. James is also rather quick-tempered, resorting more often to steel-fisted violence than calm negotiation to settle disputes. He has a reputation for being foul-mouthed and is an incurably sarcastic cynic, only too happy to bluntly and harshly relieve others of their comfortable delusions regarding god, reality, or their own self-importance. James has also displayed a propensity towards impatience and an inability to sit still for long, which perhaps contributes to his love of travel.

However, for those few people who have made an impact on him, James shows his deeper nature to be one of marked selflessness, unflinching loyalty and great compassion. As someone who has had to suffer greatly at such a young age, James cannot ignore the true suffering of others and becomes sympathetic upon sensing pain and resolve in people's hearts. Though his solemn advice to such people is often tempered with brusque criticism, it is only because he genuinely wishes to place them on the most direct path forward. As one who has to struggle with a maimed body, he urges those with healthy bodies to use their strong legs to move forward, and as one burdened by the mistakes of his past, he stresses the necessity of people taking responsibility for their own errors. Though he will intervene on behalf of the oppressed if he concludes that a situation has called for it, James tends to help only those with the will - but not the means - to help themselves, in which case his recklessness and disdain for authority often has him bending the rules to dole out a Robin Hood-esque justice in accordance with his strong belief in the concept of Equivalent Exchange, earning him notoriety.
Even in moments of relative composure, any and all references to his stature cause him to violently lose control of his emotions and lash out both verbally and physically. Distinctive to these outbursts is James' tendency to take even the most casual mention of his height as a gross insult and interpret it exaggeratedly, mistaking words as simple as "small" for phrases as contrived as "so-tiny-that-he-need-not-fear-being-crushed-by-a-boot-because-he-fits-so-easily-between-the-grooves-of-the-sole" and the like. Those unfortunate to utter the word "small" in his presence are fated to suffer one of his vindictive tantrums.

Though James proudly professes that he does not believe in gods, his spiritual sensibilities tend more toward the agnostic than the atheistic; in private, though he does not pray, he frequently acknowledges the existence of a god in his speech, if only to justify why it is that his life has been so difficult.

James is not the kind of person you want to pick a fight with. He wasn't always Mr. Tough Guy, but after growing up with three older siblings, he's very used to competition and confrontation. His attitude really changed after his sister died. She was his last connection to any of his family and she had died. He was supposed to be protecting her and he failed. He hadn't been able to save her. James blames himself for not being there in the house with her. He believes he should have been the one to die, not her. He had everyone he loved ripped away from him and has literally nothing to lose. James doesn't have much regard for his own life, which is why people often find him so intimidating. How do you threaten someone who has nothign left? And when your own life isn't a factor anymore, who knows what you're capable of? James does feel an obligation to help others, but only so that they don't end up like him. He doesn't have the patience to deal with those who are weak or passive. His sister was a fighter, but she still died. Why should he go out of his way to help those who don't want it. In his opinion, it's a waste of time.

James is not all gloom and doom though. If you manage to stay in his good graces, he can actually be a pretty cool guy. He occasionally takes off his mask of seriousness and becomes the person he was before the world ended. Very few people see this side of him though.

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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Bosch on Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:21 pm

Star Wars is actually a pretty awesome example of what jag is talking about. (I'm not a huge Star Wars fan so please correct me if I'm wrong) I've heard it said that Georgous George Lucas had backstorires planned out for every character in Star Wars. Han Solo's was that he was a storm trooper that defected after saving the life of chewbacca. Chewbacca then swore alligence to Solo as a way to repay the debt. I reckon this describes the two characters in a brilliant fashion.

However the point adds to jag's as it was never explored in the film and existed solely in Georgous George's head. He had such a grasp on the character that he understood where the character was coming from but didn't need to explain it. He probably had the same level of background with the new characters but that didn't translate onto the screen. The same is true of RPers. Your CS can contain loads of info but unless it's expressed in posts it's pointless.

I feel this exercise would be better if you asked a fellow RPer to describe your character in this fashion.

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Bosch
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Saarai on Fri Mar 15, 2013 3:07 pm

I was just talking about this with someone else the other day. The flaws, that is. I have a hard time just describing a character's inner-self because who they are on the outside, their experiences in life, their job or jobs and so on made them who they are. Made them think the way they think.

But, I'll stop before I say what's already been said by Bosch. Though, I will say I've found more depth from RPing with a character or seeing them in action than just reading their background or feelings.

I don't think I'd have the same connection to a character in a movie if I just read a summary of their psyche though.

Wolverine becomes angry Canadian, Jack Harkness becomes pansexual secret agent, Batman becomes weird, angry rich guy who dresses up in a cape at night sometimes.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby RichterGotz on Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:49 am

Bosch wrote:Star Wars is actually a pretty awesome example of what jag is talking about. (I'm not a huge Star Wars fan so please correct me if I'm wrong) I've heard it said that Georgous George Lucas had backstorires planned out for every character in Star Wars. Han Solo's was that he was a storm trooper that defected after saving the life of chewbacca. Chewbacca then swore alligence to Solo as a way to repay the debt. I reckon this describes the two characters in a brilliant fashion.

However the point adds to jag's as it was never explored in the film and existed solely in Georgous George's head. He had such a grasp on the character that he understood where the character was coming from but didn't need to explain it. He probably had the same level of background with the new characters but that didn't translate onto the screen. The same is true of RPers. Your CS can contain loads of info but unless it's expressed in posts it's pointless.

I feel this exercise would be better if you asked a fellow RPer to describe your character in this fashion.


He also wanted Luke Skywalker to be a girl and Han Solo to be a filthy alien with a robot head.
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Gatan on Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:57 pm

I know this is a very old topic, but I still find it useful.
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Gatan
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Re: Character Depth Test

Tips: 2.25 INK Postby lostamongtrees on Wed Apr 14, 2021 9:07 am

Casren Bistreo
Casren is whimsically delightful as dinner company, even if he is sometimes awkward and unsettling with his macabre jokes and unblinking gaze. He's compassionate to a fault and has a deep love of all living things. Despite the fact that he's witnessed more treachery in his lifetime than most ever will, he has delusions of a utopian near-future- which he will go to almost any length to achieve. Many in his community consider him a humble and fearless leader, others consider him a reckless fool with no tact and no business in a position of power. The fact that he has a habit of disappearing every decade or so for a century or so doesn't bode well for his reputation, but his legacy is sustained in stone. As a founder of both the Detente and Verinotte Hollow, Casren isn't soon to be forgotten by the history books themselves in his locale.
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