Entitlement

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National politics and the governance of the population.

Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby dealing with it on Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:18 pm

Is it altogether a bad thing for some people to be entitled at the expense of others? For example, should we allow someone to choose the beneficiary in their will? All too often, that creates bad blood.

I believe that liberalism, where justice is linked directly to fairness, does not permit any form of entitlement; we are all equally poor.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:34 am

Fairness as a concept is good but in practice, at least the US leftist/liberal version of fairness, it doesn't hold water. That version of fairness is ultimately unfair, as it punishes people for doing better for themselves than others. Those people who are doing better worked for it and saved up for a rainy day. It is a false assumption that all people who have large amounts of money or goods are lazy, or stole all their goods from other people who did work for it. One can't earn money without working for it, which comes to the will question.

Because people who have a lot of goods and money worked hard to get it, they want to protect it from thieves and con-men. They know they can't take those goods with them when they die, so most of the time they give it as an inheritance to someone they expect to still be alive when they die. This person is usually someone whom they trust above others. If this causes bad blood between siblings or other relatives, wouldn't that prove their untrustworthiness?

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:42 am

FyreTiger, however the labor of someone who earns over a million annually is often not worth that much but usually linked to a greedy overestimation of ones own labor. I do not support an absolute egalitarian system, but I support a pay system that limits the income of the highest earner in the company to maybe a factor of eight or ten of the pay of the lowest earning full time employee. Therefore, if a CEO enriches himself with a higher wage, it will be linked to employee salaries ultimately benefitting the employees as a whole. So let us say that the lowest earning employee earns 8 dollars an hour, a fair wage in less expensive states for starters. If the employee works full time at 40 hrs a week in a typical 9 to 5 job, the employee earns 1280 dollars a month. If the highest ranking position in the company is limited to a factor of ten times that, the highest earner earns 80 dollars per hour or 12800 dollars a month which is a salary people shouldnt need to complain about. Now if the highest earner wants to earn twenty dollars more an hour then he would get 100 dollars an hour or 16k a month. The lowest earner would get a raise of two dollars an hour and would earn a total of 1600 dollars a month, which may even be enough to support a family in Kentucky or Tennessee. For me personally, a coop is the best and fairest solution which includes the wage limitation rule but also the employees as a whole keep a majority share of the company and cannot sell of their shares to outside investors to maintain that they keep the 51 or 60% share of the company. The employees share also creates incentive to work more productively as the more the company earns, the bigger the employees bonuses get.
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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Fri Jul 14, 2017 10:40 am

Both Bill Gates and Warren Buffett are wealthy liberal democrats in the US. Both of them earn not just millions but billions per year. If your basis of wealth is overestimation of labor, would you claim these two liberals overestimate their own labor?

Both of them were founders of their respective businesses and worked to get those businesses off the ground. Bill Gates is the founder of Microsoft well-known for computers and software, and Warren Buffett is a stockbroker and his business is a brokerage business. He also trades stocks outside his business. I don't know much about brokerage, but it does require some research and planning according to patterns.

Putting upper limits to earning, seems more likely to discourage productivity than encourage it. If a person knows they can never get more than a specified amount no matter what they do, why bother trying? Do you realize that merchant guilds in the middle ages did some of the same? They put limits on how much vendors could sell their stock for, thus how much they could earn. It wasn't all that great for the economy, either.

Also during the middle ages disparity between rich and poor was greater than it is today, and on top of that it was impossible for a poor man to get rich. Even though there may still be some disparity today, upward mobility is no longer absolutely impossible. One needs to be willing to put in the work. Rich people became rich because they did put in the work.

Successful businesses already have employee stock shares, but small start up businesses don't because they don't even have a share in the marketplace yet. They are still working to earn it. Most of the business-related regulations in recent years actually harmed these small businesses more than helped anyone. A start up can't afford $15 an hour minimum wage. In that case the owners of the business are really earning nothing, and the business can't succeed. A small business also can't afford $2000 per person to buy health insurance for all the staff. If there aren't enough staff, business can also fail to get work done and lose trust of their customers. Without customers a business still can't get off the ground. Starting a new business is risky no matter what, I know that, but once it gets past the start up stage, can there not be some kind of reward?

Maybe if your upper limit on wages suggestion changed to a certain percentage of business earnings it would be more viable. Setting a specified percentage of earnings would both encourage productivity and limit salaries as you so wish. But people can still earn more money in general if they have more than one business or they play the stock market. The richest people in the world do both, and they do work to hold on to the money.

Those who inherit money also to some degree work for it. They have a sense of pride in their inheritance money and don't wish to squander it. They also worked to earn the trust of the person they inherited the money from, and when that person is gone they don't want to fail the memory of the person. In general, rich people actually have great respect for money and earnings and work. They should be just as respected for the work they put in to earn the money.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Fri Jul 28, 2017 10:50 pm

A business owner is not worth more than his own effort and input. If you create a business only to get rich off of the labor of others, then you are a crappy business owner. In my opinion, Warren Buffett and Bill Gates aren't worth the billions they earn. A million annually would be a more acceptable income worth for them. If they want to go on business trips they should have enough money in the company to afford that.

And no, it is not exactly an upper limit. It is an income that is fixed to employee income. Want more money? Give your employees a raise. If you earn eight times that of your lowest paid employee and raise their salary from 1700 to 2000 monthly, your salary with go from 13600 dollar a month to 16000 dollars a month. Simple as that.

In regards to shares, I do not mean stocks. I mean in the sense of a coop where multiple employees bring a small investment in the company and deserve to receive the surplus accordingly or can vote on whether to invest some of their entitled surplus in the company in case of times of difficult economy.

Now you are actually thinking about a commission based work instead of guaranteeing a base income and then paying out a share from the surplus.

A lot of rich people only think about money and then disregard those that helped build the company. There are plenty of people out there who barely get by taking care of a family on their salary despite working for a company for 20 plus years. Then they are under constant threat that they could be laid off because either their job will be automated or outsourced to save money for the company while the CEO fills his pockets with money.

And so far, a lot of "successful businesses" needed to be bailed out by the government or have a huge market share where they practically have no competition. In the US, businesses pop up and disappear quicker than in some other countries. It is carelessness at least.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:01 pm

Exactly how does giving other people more money give the boss or the business itself more money?

Both Bill Gates and Warren Buffett also give their money to charities, so they aren't hoarding the money like some fantasy dragon hoards treasures. I also know that Bill Gates' employees aren't struggling to make ends meet. My brother works at Microsoft going on four or five years now and he's not scraping the barrel to pay bills. Microsoft also helped him move into his new apartment and paid him as an intern, as well as gave him a computer when he first started.

Computer programming is considered skilled work so one is expected to get paid more than unskilled work. Unskilled work includes sweeping floors, running cash registers, flipping hamburgers. Such work also isn't meant to be a lifelong career. If one is running a cash register or flipping burgers for 20 years at minimum wage, I wonder why they never attempted to get a better paying job. A person 'stuck' in an unskilled job is more likely to be assumed lazy than hard-working.

I should say there's more to a job than a large paycheck. If someone has a low paycheck but thoroughly enjoys the work, they should keep that job. Most people don't enjoy the unskilled jobs, because the work tends to be mind-numbing or have horrible life-work balance. Some of the work with higher monetary return can be just as miserable if one doesn't have the personality for it. If someone is in that situation, it would be in his or her personal best interest to quit and look for a more suitable job regardless of paycheck.

Competition or lack thereof and business failures are all part of a free market. True freedom cannot help but have a risk attached. Because of the risk, responsibility is just as required. Lack of competition is often a reason why someone considers starting a business though, either as competition for another company or because there is no other company that offers what the startup is offering.

The bailouts I know of in the last few years were banks giving out faulty loans or automobile companies who were spending more than they were earning, so I don't think they were in the best interests of the companies involved. Because of the bailing out, they ended up selling themselves to the government, and bought themselves more problems. Government-issue equipment and supplies always has a terrible reputation.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:34 pm

I am not willing discuss this with you when you seem to be not interested in comprehending when I am telling you.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby dealing with it on Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:04 pm

Forgive me for the interruption, but it seems that a big issue here is that neither participant is asking questions of the other; and, on the exception, neither is replying to questions.

This is causing confusion. What are you two arguing about? What's the short of your position? In my view of philosophy, the goal of philosophy is to reduce confusion and generate efficient knowledge acquisition. It is to be wise.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:27 pm

To FyreT1ger,

My previous post was regarding your first sentence.

Now to the following paragraphs.

1. Bill Gates may actually be a good example, however Warren Buffett is oblivious of how badly some of his employees are paid. I actually worked for one of his companies. While my salary was decent, I had colleagues who were customer reps who had to work a second job to feed their families despite working full-time in the primary place of work.

2. and 3. I am arguing for a living wage, not for a burger flipper to be paid like a pediatrician. And there are people who are actually stuck in dead end underpaid jobs, because they have bad credentials, have a disability, etc. Now if you say: Why don't they go to college? Imagine you come from a poor background and need to feed a family. You will be first be focusing on survival than taking up a huge loan and going back to school without a steady income. The issue here is: "people who aren't in the same position cannot relate to people of that position" Some people need to survive on a salary below 20,000 a year. In eastern Kentucky that is good pay, but in urban centers, especially on the east coast, that is barely an income to live off of.

4. A completely unregulated market however runs into the problem of exploitation. Often it is the ones that cannot defend themselves or are in desperate situations who fall victim of such exploitation.

5. I also do not believe the market should be subsidized by the government.

DWI: I don't know what I should ask.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby dealing with it on Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:38 pm

Aniihya wrote:DWI: I don't know what I should ask.

Have you ever read Plato? In his writing, Plato gives examples of the Socratic dialogue, where Socrates "tricks" people into contradicting themselves. He does not share his real opinion outright; his goal is to get other people to come to the truth. Socrates calls himself "the midwife of other people's thoughts".

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:09 pm

I am aware of the Socratic method of questioning, but I am not a good conductor of said method.

Nevertheless, I did ask questions that weren't answered:
If there is bad blood between relatives because one rich relative gives all their money to a single individual, wouldn't it prove the ones against said individual couldn't be trusted with the inheritance money?

Do Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, as examples of wealthy businessmen, overestimate their own contribution to their businesses, especially when they are the ones that founded said businesses and worked to make them successful?

How does the leader of a business spending more money gain the business more money?

Aniihya also proposed limiting business leaders' total salary, which doesn't make sense to me, because putting an upper limit on salaries of any individual would have to put an upper limit on ALL salaries to remain fair. Doing so wouldn't encourage productivity but hamper it because the employees know they can NEVER go any further than their upper salary, so whatever extra effort they might put in to get raises would be wasted.

I also went on to say regarding that one point that it was already tried in the middle ages under merchant guilds which controlled every single aspect of businesses. Controlling every aspect of the businesses wasn't helpful to the economy and kept everyone poor, except for the leaders of the guilds and the aristocrats. Even so, the guilds gained more money than the aristocrats and some lost their privileges and goods in the fallout.

My points are that all money comes from effort put into making it, and if one is not satisfied with either their job or the money they earn from the work, they should either leave that work to find another job, or put in more effort to get more of what they want out of it. If those are my points, I may have strayed a little from the topic. I apologize for slipping off the topic and thank you for being a good moderator and getting back on track. Back on the topic, I believe that because one's inheritance or wealth is due to that one's effort in gaining it, they are indeed right to claim entitlement of it.

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Re: Entitlement

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:45 pm

"Aniihya also proposed limiting business leaders' total salary, which doesn't make sense to me, because putting an upper limit on salaries of any individual would have to put an upper limit on ALL salaries to remain fair." -Your logic doesn't make sense since most salaries are limited, except for owner and CEO salaries that seem to commonly be getting multi-million dollar boni for self-enrichment.

What I am proposing is called a tariff. It is something most countries have, even most of the most economically successful ones. However most tariffs aren't bound by a factor of the lowest 160 hr/month salary. Coops however have such bound tariffs, Here is a list of such coops. https://www.thenews.coop/49090/sector/v ... und-world/

Most cooperatives do not have stocks on the stock market and are completely worker owned and commonly very stable even in recession. The few that are listed on the stock market are still majority owned by employees.

The thing about cooperatives however is that the employees are motivated to be productive due to them owning the cooperative and often the employee gets a portion of the profit due to him or her being a co-owner of the coop.

Bringing up the merchant guilds is a strawman argument. I am talking about something completely different here.

My point is that people shouldn't enrich themselves from the labor of others. No labor is 10,000 times more valuable than the labor of raw manpower. In short, common CEOs are nothing more than parasites.

To your questions: 1. We are talking about labor, not inheretance. 2. I believe they are rather detached from the reality of their worst off employees. Bill Gates not so much (since starting salaries at Microsoft arent bad). Warren Buffett is a better example of the detachment of the reality of he worst off employees. 3. What? I think you didn't understand me correctly there. I never said that raising expenditures brings in more profit. I said appreciating the labor of employees more is noble. Plus an employee that is well off is happier, more productive and more loyal. An underpaid employee is more likely to come to work sick, be sluggish due to poor health or lack of sleep due to having to work two jobs and isnt sincerely loyal as the loyalty is actually a fear of losing a job than being a part of something bigger and trying to climb up the career ladder.

Plus often the worst offenders when it comes to underpaid employees yet huge CEO boni are usually the ones being bailed out. AIG for example, bailed out, CEO gets 15 million bonus, yet a lot of sales reps for AIG get a petty commission in comparison to sales reps from other insurance companies.

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