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Is feminism really about equality?

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Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Mon Jun 01, 2015 4:44 pm

Many feminists nowadays complain about inequality and sometimes use inflated numbers to justify their cause but when you look at how women in western society are now priveleged compared to men, people start to ask themselves if feminism really is about equality nowadays. I tend to see many double-standards from "feminists" today and I find it really disgusting. I call myself an egalitarian because I see that there is a need for equality regardless of gender, race, sexuality, disability etc. One of my main issues why I started this thread was:

People completely ignore the fact that there are male victims of domestic violence by women. There is even a lack of backlash towards women who admit to have punched their partners unprovoked. Sometimes these women are even applauded for their action. Meanwhile this year, the city of London (UK) has decreased support funding for male victims of domestic abuse from 32000 pound to zero. Where is the justice? Where is the equality?

And why cannot feminism be what it once was (a movement towards equality and not privelege)?
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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Daiagnosis on Thu Jun 04, 2015 7:21 pm

Feminism is and still should be about equality, it's the Neo feminist who creates these damaging views on feminism. Many of the things feminist are fighting against will also address these double standards against men, and this is what many people fail to realize.

I found a video called "#MenimistTwitter + Anti- Feminism" (I can't link it for some reason, the site won't allow me.) It explains what many people still don't understand about feminism. There are a few vulgar words but it gets the point across.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:02 pm

The first response I had to the original post would have been snarky, so I'm glad I waited for another person to post. I read the transcript for the video, which didn't include any vulgarity, and some things mentioned I agree with, but not everything.

Not everyone who is against modern feminism is male. I am a woman and think what's called feminism nowadays, as well as "women's rights" are more devaluing to women than the other way around. The things that make the news include women stripping naked in public as a "protest" to objectifying her. Isn't stripping naked in public to get attention objectifying yourself? It is also illegal, under indecent exposure and voyeurism laws, but these particular women don't get penalized. Exposing yourself in such a way, dehumanizes you in a man's eyes and to the general public exposes you as someone who can't be taken seriously.

Other things promoted by these people treat biological factors and natural processes unique to women as "shameful" or treat pure biological femininity as a disease. Treating womanhood as a disease is, in my opinion, the absolutely MOST degrading, devaluing, and insulting thing to ANY woman. I'd go so far as to call it abuse.

It is a disconcerting fact that these women in particular are MORE violent and abusive than they claim men are. Any woman who disagrees with these "feminists" are verbally abused, sometimes even threatened. In more extreme cases, property is destroyed or stolen. A more appropriate term for these type of "feminists" is narcissistic misanthropes.

Because of this elitist and abusive behavior, I am a woman against modern feminism. To answer Aniihya's last question, I think the only way it will be what it should be is to actually punish these abusive misanthropes, and to expand the original intents of the movement to countries where it's actually needed. Support women's charities in the Middle East and Africa for example. Those are the places where I think it's actually relevant.

A charity that I would love to offer more support for is The Mercy House. It offers medical care for mostly sexually abused women and girls, and gives them a safe place to live, while raising children and learning skills to help them financially support themselves. The children and pregnant teenagers also learn to read and write, since many of these young women and girls aren't allowed to go to school. Proper medical care and education are the only things that can help these girls get out of their bad situations. That's what feminists really should pay attention to.

No, abortion and birth control pills or devices are NOT proper medical care. They are things I derided as being implements of treating womanhood as a disease.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby VindicatedPurpose on Fri Jun 05, 2015 8:27 pm

So wait...what is feminism again?

Could someone give me a quick rundown on that?

Last I checked, it's a range of movements now, and it's identity seems to be marred by divergent and radical fragments.

From what I see as an American citizen, there's still the wage difference between men and women. I mean, the other night I read a post about (and subsequently watched) a segment of Jon Stewart's Daily Show speaking of Caitlyn Jenner's transformation. He focused on the possibility that people will see and treat Caitlyn as a woman now.

What does that mean exactly? People will not see her for her accomplishments, or her brain, but her physical appearance. And that's practically what everyone's been talking about.

On top of that, she'll probably be paid 70% of what she used to be paid since she's a woman now. Not that it really matters for someone like her, but for the average Joe becoming Joan...yeah it might.

There's a lot more stuff, but we should tackle one issue at time because it seems like feminism is more than just one issue. Not to mention the fact that we have a really long thread to do so anyway.
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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:08 pm

Honestly, I value the traditional feminists compared to the new feminist waves. The new waves have become ideological while traditional feminism is just a movement for equality. There was one feminist who works at a particular institute that I admire as she addresses real issues versus the unfound fabricated issues the modern "new" feminists believe in. I believe we can all agree that misandry is just as bad as misogyny as both are forms of sexism.

And Fyre, I agree that real feminism may have a role in developing countries where women are treated as second class citizens and donating to provide decent medical and educational support sounds reasonable.

VP, here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58arQIr882w

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Fri Jun 05, 2015 11:22 pm

Huff post had also reported on it, stating that the 77 cent figure is ridiculous and it actually lies at 93.4 cents per every dollar a man makes. Then if you consider other factors, it will be difficult to make the gap any smaller as you would have to pay a woman who has less experience or has been in the company fewer years the same as a more experienced colleague. The gap often comes when a woman is pregnant and takes a year off from work, if she chooses to. More men nowadays do paternity leave so that the woman can work instead. Now other factors can be job choice and how many women are in well paying jobs. I find it possible to have more female CEOs and more female doctors. However women do not seem to choose fields that lead to such occupations. If you are looking for a formerly male dominated job that many women nowadays seek, then look at engineering, psychology or medical research.

Huff post article http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina ... 73804.html

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Sara Whitley on Wed Jun 17, 2015 2:02 pm

From the perspective of neuroscience, male and female brains really are wired somewhat differently. While not wanting to generalize, females tend to have more of their brain dedicated to socializing, emotional memory, and empathy. Men tend to have a greater awareness in visual-spacial processing.

The psychological "gap" in between males and females has been decreasing with the progression of time, civilization, and social reform. Equality expressed in society leading to a reduction of traditional gender roles is certainly a reason for this phenomenon. I fence, historical fencing from an era when it was not right for a female to fence, and I'm in college for neuroscience. I think feminism as a concept has definitely helped mold a more equal society as gender roles become a more and more outdated form of social structure, and the equality of that society is part of why I am who I am today.

Despite that, the differences between male and female brains still manifest in behavior. Statistically speaking, men are still more likely to perform certain roles in society, such as those requiring hard physical labor, jobs that require visual-spacial awareness like engineering, and other stereotypically "male" tasks. Females are still more likely to pursue humanitarian fields of work or study, which simply don't pay as much.

I think without thinking statistically, or having ever studied or pondered the evolutionary reasons for the differences in neurological anatomy in male and female (especially if you're unable to go to school), it can be very easy to make the feminist movement all about yourself. Empowering the female sex for the sake of empowering. Rhetoric and strong thoughts feed each other and create a tunnel vision, and while feminism is supposed to be about equality, the few but loudest extremist voices can definitely taint that picture. Without the education, extreme feminists will grasp onto things like an average gap in wages, without taking into account the differences in how men and women make our choices on a completely impartial biological level. I think what they do is they take a complex idea, shave it down until it fits into the tunnel of their vision, and then run with it.

It's what all extremists do.
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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Dawn ✩ Quixotic on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:27 pm

Feminism is supposed to be about equality, but not every feminist will actually care about equality.
I've met feminists who clearly only cared about themselves. So, in light of that, it's easy to see why people can think feminism isn't about equality (especially when everyone who calls themselves a feminist will provide a different definition for what feminism is...)

And why cannot feminism be what it once was (a movement towards equality and not privelege)?


Because "equality" can only go so far. When you have laws that favor one group over another (like allowing men to vote, but not allowing women to do so), you can fix that by revising the law.
You can't so easily fix the attitude people might have that women are unable or unworthy of making important decisions, which led to them not being allowed to vote in the first place.
This attitude will still have effects on women in society, and that's what feminists continue to fight against.

The main problem you run into is that these effects and their causes are now a lot harder to quantify.
Take the controversy over the sexual objectification of women in the media. While it does seem like a prevalent attitude, and you can encounter people who really do seem to view women like this, it's not so easy to prove any such motivations in any given situation (unless the creators openly say they have a policy of only presenting women as a means towards sexual gratification).

Despite that, the differences between male and female brains still manifest in behavior. Statistically speaking, men are still more likely to perform certain roles in society, such as those requiring hard physical labor, jobs that require visual-spacial awareness like engineering, and other stereotypically "male" tasks. Females are still more likely to pursue humanitarian fields of work or study, which simply don't pay as much.


I don't suppose you can provide citations for the studies proving this is indeed due to neurological differences between male and female humans and not just because boys and girls are raised in different ways.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Wed Jun 17, 2015 6:24 pm

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ho ... en-genders

There is also the theory of male and female brain in the sense of rationality vs emotion. When people speak of a strong female brain, emotions are a strong trait. However a strong male brain is defined as high rationalization and structuring skill. In the sense of high functioning autism for example both men and women have "male" brains.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscie ... ctionality

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Sara Whitley on Thu Jun 18, 2015 3:36 pm

Human beings express what is called sexual dimorphism, which is an evolved difference between male and female within any given species. Our brains are sexually dimorphic in structure and neurochemistry. The neurochemical differences of male and female will affect how the brain develops, as well as predispositions to certain behaviors. The most commonly known chemicals that drive the change between men and women are estrogen and testosterone.

I can't really cite any studies that directly link the differing career preferences between males and females to sexual dimorphism of the brain, because it's always going to be a complex, case-dependent interplay of biological sex and the social construct of gender. What can be cited, however, could be innumerable studies establishing a fairly solid link between neurochemistry and behavior, from the subject of neuroscience. And then, borrowing studies from the field of physical anthropology, we can see that sexual dimorphism of the brain has evolutionary roots, and that these differences between man and women were naturally selected as these differences must have provided us a greater chance of survival.

As sexual dimorphism in the hominid brain far predates the evolution of language, neurochemical differences between the sexes are the primary driving force for the concept of "gender" and its numerous manifestations in human culture, including gender roles.

Therefore, sexually dimorphic neurochemistry remains and probably will remain not only the reason men and women will prefer different careers, but the reason men and women were ever raised differently in the first place.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FyreT1ger on Wed Jun 24, 2015 5:38 pm

Some delusional people who claim to be feminists refuse to believe in sexual dimorphism, and will constantly beat the same debunked arguments over and over for all eternity and completely ignore true persecution, as I previously mentioned in regards to Middle East and Africa. Girls prohibited from going to school or being used as nothing more than a sex object, even as young as eight or nine years old.

I actually think that Bruce Jenner (I refuse to consider a genetic male, female) is a perfect example of what Anniihya said in the first post. Why do you think he wanted to be she in the first place?

Because of misandrists, males are considered vermin and evil for something they can't really change. Now Bruce Jenner is no better than a physically mutilated drug addict, because stopping his drugs will force him to face the ruin he did to his body. What he did is the ultimate self-harm.

A non-celebrity who did the same is fifty years old and only now actually accepting and considering who he truly is. This man did the surgery to 'become' female in his twenties I believe, but it didn't solve his real problem. His real problem was not his physical male body, but emotional and sexual abuse as a small child. His grandmother forced him to wear a purple dress and only ever praised him or treated him well when he was in that purple dress. When he was his actual self, a young male child, she did nothing but insult and deride him. When he was older he was raped by a babysitter, but his parents never knew about it.

Not until he received proper therapy for the abuse did he ever have peace with himself. Once he had that peace with himself as a male human, he stopped taking the drugs disrupting the natural processes of his proper biological male body and married a proper biological woman. This is what the feminism Aniihya described in the first post creates.

Did anyone notice the disparity of men wishing to be women compared to women wishing to be men? Not only Bruce Jenner and that fifty-year-old non-celebrity, but pubescent and prepubescent male children wish they were female children and attempt to join female only sports teams, where as biological males they DO have a physical advantage which prevents the girls from enjoying themselves or feeling like their own contributions to their girls-only sports teams matter.

Also the attitude that anyone who wants to be can be female is totally AGAINST what it means to or should mean to be feminists.To continue the comparison of males wishing to be female on female sports teams, if the males who wish to be female are forcing themselves on female sports teams, they are degrading and devaluing actual female contributions to sports in general.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Daiagnosis on Wed Jun 24, 2015 8:43 pm

FyreT1ger wrote:The first response I had to the original post would have been snarky, so I'm glad I waited for another person to post. I read the transcript for the video, which didn't include any vulgarity, and some things mentioned I agree with, but not everything.

Not everyone who is against modern feminism is male.

    That's a given, the video was directed towards the Menimist twitter posts, so of course it would talk more about men being against feminism rather than females being against it.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:29 pm

Yet I have seen women wear Menimist t-shirts indicating a female fanbase.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Dawn ✩ Quixotic on Mon Jun 29, 2015 3:20 am

Sara Whitley wrote:Human beings express what is called sexual dimorphism, which is an evolved difference between male and female within any given species. Our brains are sexually dimorphic in structure and neurochemistry. The neurochemical differences of male and female will affect how the brain develops, as well as predispositions to certain behaviors. The most commonly known chemicals that drive the change between men and women are estrogen and testosterone.

I can't really cite any studies that directly link the differing career preferences between males and females to sexual dimorphism of the brain, because it's always going to be a complex, case-dependent interplay of biological sex and the social construct of gender. What can be cited, however, could be innumerable studies establishing a fairly solid link between neurochemistry and behavior, from the subject of neuroscience. And then, borrowing studies from the field of physical anthropology, we can see that sexual dimorphism of the brain has evolutionary roots, and that these differences between man and women were naturally selected as these differences must have provided us a greater chance of survival.

As sexual dimorphism in the hominid brain far predates the evolution of language, neurochemical differences between the sexes are the primary driving force for the concept of "gender" and its numerous manifestations in human culture, including gender roles.

Therefore, sexually dimorphic neurochemistry remains and probably will remain not only the reason men and women will prefer different careers, but the reason men and women were ever raised differently in the first place.


Yes, but what is the proof that is due to inherent neurochemistry and not due to cultural programming?
There's a lot of conjecture thrown around and some of it has vague evidence to support it, but until I see some actual studies, with actual rigorous experimentation and controls involved, I'm not going to buy it as anything close to having real support of proof.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Saarai on Mon Jun 29, 2015 4:37 pm

I have to chime in for a second and inform people that the Meninist Twitter is a satire on Feminists by a group of comedians, I'm not sure why people think it's real or why idiotic men made the Meninists more than a joke for idiotic women to believe is infringing on them.

It's a troll account.
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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Sara Whitley on Fri Jul 03, 2015 11:11 am

Dawn ✩ Quixotic wrote:
Sara Whitley wrote:Human beings express what is called sexual dimorphism, which is an evolved difference between male and female within any given species. Our brains are sexually dimorphic in structure and neurochemistry. The neurochemical differences of male and female will affect how the brain develops, as well as predispositions to certain behaviors. The most commonly known chemicals that drive the change between men and women are estrogen and testosterone.

I can't really cite any studies that directly link the differing career preferences between males and females to sexual dimorphism of the brain, because it's always going to be a complex, case-dependent interplay of biological sex and the social construct of gender. What can be cited, however, could be innumerable studies establishing a fairly solid link between neurochemistry and behavior, from the subject of neuroscience. And then, borrowing studies from the field of physical anthropology, we can see that sexual dimorphism of the brain has evolutionary roots, and that these differences between man and women were naturally selected as these differences must have provided us a greater chance of survival.

As sexual dimorphism in the hominid brain far predates the evolution of language, neurochemical differences between the sexes are the primary driving force for the concept of "gender" and its numerous manifestations in human culture, including gender roles.

Therefore, sexually dimorphic neurochemistry remains and probably will remain not only the reason men and women will prefer different careers, but the reason men and women were ever raised differently in the first place.


Yes, but what is the proof that is due to inherent neurochemistry and not due to cultural programming?
There's a lot of conjecture thrown around and some of it has vague evidence to support it, but until I see some actual studies, with actual rigorous experimentation and controls involved, I'm not going to buy it as anything close to having real support of proof.


I tried to sum this up with my last statement, but I don't think it's really accurate to look at it as neurochemistry or cultural programming. What I was trying to say was that all cultural programming follows the contours of our neurochemistry. "Cultural programming" is an emergent process that results over time of all the decisions that have been made in how life is to be lived. These decisions, every last one of them, are inseparably tied to our neurochemistry and to some extent, our genes.

There's not really one study or something along those lines, that instantly connects cultural decision making to neurochemistry, because cultural decision making is such a vague and all-encompassing aspect of human behavior. The conclusion was based, rather, on connecting two entire fields of study--neuroscience, and cultural anthropology. Neuroscience first delves into the concept that all decisions we make are neurochemical in nature, and cultural anthropology visits the concept of culture emerging from decision making and where the roots lie.

So basically, it stands to reason (unless you know of a sound alternative argument), that all culture is the emergent result of neurochemistry-based decision making, and since neurochemistry expresses sexual dimorphism, it also stands to reason that men and women will, throughout history, make quantitatively different patterns of decisions from the opposite sex, including but not limited to career choice.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Grnmachine on Fri Jul 31, 2015 7:29 pm

This would depend on who your talking about, FeminISTS, or FemiNAZIS. Ive had more than my fair share of run-ins with Feminazis, and they keep telling me about how much of a horrible person i am purely on the fact i'm male. In fact ive heard of a case where a so-called Feminist aborted a child she was going to have based only on the fact it was a boy. I cant find a source for this one, so take it with a grain of salt.

And i think the discussions have introduced the wage gap, so let me throw in my two cents. The wage gap DOESNT EXIST- there have been a few studies that show that woman earn less, not out of sexism, but out of the choices the woman make. E.g. part time vs full time, hours worked, career choices, education, among other things. So really, woman are asking for special treatment if they want to be paid "equally".

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Daiagnosis on Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:56 pm

Grnmachine wrote:This would depend on who your talking about, FeminISTS, or FemiNAZIS. Ive had more than my fair share of run-ins with Feminazis, and they keep telling me about how much of a horrible person i am purely on the fact i'm male. In fact ive heard of a case where a so-called Feminist aborted a child she was going to have based only on the fact it was a boy. I cant find a source for this one, so take it with a grain of salt.

And i think the discussions have introduced the wage gap, so let me throw in my two cents. The wage gap DOESNT EXIST- there have been a few studies that show that woman earn less, not out of sexism, but out of the choices the woman make. E.g. part time vs full time, hours worked, career choices, education, among other things. So really, woman are asking for special treatment if they want to be paid "equally".

    Education usually isn't the problem, given that women make up the majority whenever it comes to graduates in colleges, and they're (generally speaking) more motivated in education than men are. But even given that fact, we're less likely to see them in positions of power. Striving for total equality is fundamentally flawed, women and men are different biologically, they make different choices in life, that's simply how it is. That's something we can't change, what we can do is to give men and women equal opportunity. In the first-world, this isn't so much as needed, but in third-world countries it definitely is.

    Although biology does play a huge part in a lot of what women and men decide to do with their lives, the stereotyping of gender roles is often taught from a young age. It's as simple as saying only girls play with dolls and boys should play with trucks. Women are not usually encouraged by parents to be in positions of power, they're usually told to do housework and take care of the kids rather than getting a job. Which ultimately makes the men the breadwinner of the household.

    The draft, which many people bring up in opposition of feminism (claiming that if feminism is "really" about equality, feminist would be against this), is the product of gender roles. The men are viewed to be stronger and more physically capable than women, so they're drafted into the military, instead of women who are often thought of as "weaker" than men. And it's true, in general, we are physically weaker, but that shouldn't stop or prevent women from being a part of the military. That shouldn't stop us from being able to be firefighters, or police, but it often does, because those are viewed as masculine things.

    A lot of feminism is the work of trying to take down gender roles, to destroy the idea that women shouldn't be involved in some areas of work because it's considered masculine. This affects the draft, although I personally think it should've been destroyed all across the world at this point, as it's inhumane.

    I found a video, which features the speaker Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, and I personally think she brings up some good points.

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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Caille on Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:16 pm

I have taken a Social Justice course in my senior year, and we did a unit on gender roles and such, where we touched upon feminism.

The way feminism is defined, is a man or woman fighting for equal rights for both genders. Often times people are so misinformed that it leads to those who call themselves feminists ruining the actual word, and hence such a negative reputation.

I admit I am a feminist, I fight for equality for men, women, non binary and etc. I do not give people who act like they're a feminist and so misinformed the light of day. To answer your question, yes feminism is really about equality, you just get people with ignorance to what something actually is, in there to ruin it for everyone.

I apologize if this has been said somewhere but just wanted to share my view point.

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Caille
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Re: Is feminism really about equality?

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:43 pm

Well plenty of times, people hide behind the definition of the word feminist. While they spread misandrist hate and seek unfair advantages, they then come with "but I am a feminist and feminism means equal rights". It doesn't matter what the definition is when you can still do it wrong.

So to answer my own question, by definition feminism is about equality but the feminist movement in a lot of cases is not really like that.

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