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To Have Loved or Not

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To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Din on Tue Jul 27, 2010 12:34 pm

As we journey through life, picking up experiences and learning as we go, it can't be denied that some lessons are far harder to learn than others. Not only that, but there are certain things many of us have lived through that we can honestly say we would have been better off without. Some people see things as learning "the easy way" and learning "the hard way," but in all honesty, is it really that simple? Is it ever that simple? This humble man will go out on a limb and say no. But this is only a prelude the the topic at hand.

The old saying goes: "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all." Well, is it true? Having loved and lost, I would much rather have never loved at all than to have lost it. Please excuse me if this gets too personal, but aside from getting shot in the stomach or suffocated in some way, I can't imagine there being any physical pain that could match that.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Ylanne on Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:02 pm

I disagree. I say it is better to love and to lost it than to never feel love.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Saken on Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:32 pm

Personally I believe that it is better to have never loved, f you are only going to lose it. When you love someone, and I mean truly love them -either in a friend way, a lover way, or even a 'family' way, to lose that person is utter destruction of yourself, and it hurts way more than anything.

True, it is good to have loved them, but human beings should not be masochistically, and as such, shouldn't put them into such a way where the simple act of losing the person they love sets them selves up for depression, because we all know what happens when people get very depressed.

Not good things.

But, all in all, I do not believe that love should be 'avoided' more that when you enter into a possibility of it, you do not lose yourself so completely to the other person, because usually-- the other person does not like it either.
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Prose on Tue Jul 27, 2010 1:46 pm

I vote for never loved than loved, because you can't miss what's never been experienced. And you can't regret something you've never felt. It just makes life easier... which would be awesome. But as it were, everyone comes to love someone or something so love is, in fact, inevitable.
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Ylanne on Tue Jul 27, 2010 2:13 pm

Saken wrote:True, it is good to have loved them, but human beings should not be masochistically, and as such, shouldn't put them into such a way where the simple act of losing the person they love sets them selves up for depression, because we all know what happens when people get very depressed.

Not good things.


On the contrary, taken from Unstrange Minds: Remapping the World of Autism: A Father, a Daughter, and a Search for New Answers, by Roy Richard Grinker, page 125-6:

Roy Richard Grinker wrote:Consider a specific group of American Indians, the Salish, who live in Montana. Terry O'Nell, an anthropologist at the University of Oregon, thought she knew the criteria for depression well when she began a two-year stay with the Salish Indians on the Flathead reservation. She also thought she knew the prevalence rates - that at any given time fewer than 5 percent of people in the United States suffer from depression, and that even high estimates, such as the rates of depression among the elderly, do not exceed 15 percent. But when she went to Montana, the Salish told her "This is a good place to study depression. Almost everyone here is depressed."

O'Nell found that not only were they depressed - perhaps 75 percent of the community reported depression - but that they had incorporated depression into their self-image. Only the depressed qualified as "real Indians," since being an Indian meant that you had to have suffered great emotional pain. In other words, the Salish, O'Nell said, think of depression as a feature of their identity - not an illness.

The way to deal with the depression, the Salish believe, is by transforming one's sadness into compassion for others. It doesn't get rid of the depression, but it does make the depressed individuals more useful members of their families and communities. The Salish think that depressed people - that is, the most "real Indians' - are the best guides and teachers for their community. It's not surprising that mental health workers on the reservation find that depressed people resist treatment. The symptoms of depression among the Salish are as bad as it gets - they experience severe weight loss, inability to work, feelings of worthlessness, and substance abuse, among other things - and in many cases they lead to suicide. Still, depression is not considered abnormal and is, in fact, highly valued.


Thought that might be an interesting counterpoint! :)

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Din on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:27 pm

Love is described, by some, as the greatest feeling one can have, perhaps even as the epitome of joy itself. So, if I might also pose another question in conjunction with the others I asked before: Is the risk of the worst pain imaginable worth a chance at the greatest joy imaginable?

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Morbin on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:28 pm

Ah great, this stuff makes my head spin.

In any case, for me it is much better to have loved and lost then to have never loved at all, because I'm a cheery bloke, and I focus on the positive, as there is no real point in thinking on the negative. All of the negative memories of my past I conveniently dismiss, or don't bother with in any great detail, I learn from my mistakes of course, but I don't let the skeletons of my past dictate the happiness in my life or my future. But again, that's me, and I don't think I'm like very many other people.

Also, I try my very best to just not think at all about this sort of thing. Luck, fate, philosophy, psychology... Politics.

No point fussing with it, I like to put my energy into positive constructive things.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby OriginalSix on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:40 pm

'Love freely and truly, and dont be afraid of it when it comes, but in the same way, dont be afraid when it goes. Love is a free flowing force, and to try and trap it, holding it close to your chest instead of letting it flow, robs it of all the power it holds over us. Instead, when it leaves, simply be happy that you experienced love, whether for a year, a day, or a single fleeting second.'

That's pretty much my philosophy up there. Completely denying yourself any emotion is unhealthy. Yes, relationships end, and that hurts. When my last long term relationship ended, I went through a pretty dark patch for a while, and yeah, it hurt like hell, but do I regret any of it?

No. Never. I'm glad we had the time we had. If I went back in time I'd do it again in a heartbeat.

Morbin made a really good point up there, too, which is accept the things that have happened and just move on. Keep smiling, you beautiful people.

Also, two thirds of you guys are in disagreement with me here... I dont get it. We're writers. We're supposed to be in touch with our emotions, able to give them breath with our words and let others experience the things we feel through our art, and you want to deny yourselves LOVE?! The single strongest emotion there is?

Jesus. I have no more words.
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Mid on Tue Jul 27, 2010 3:48 pm

Din wrote:Love is described, by some, as the greatest feeling one can have, perhaps even as the epitome of joy itself. So, if I might also pose another question in conjunction with the others I asked before: Is the risk of the worst pain imaginable worth a chance at the greatest joy imaginable?



Honestly... I don't know. I feel conflicted really being as I have been in a situation as this. My first love I gave everything too, and he left me as quickly as he came. It broke me. I cried for a month straight, I went to sleep crying and I woke up crying. I was beyond depressed and extremely lonely. I cut out all my friends, I stopped speaking to people, I lost my voice and I just had myself to talk to. I shut the world out.

I know it sounds... emo, but it's true. Then I begged him to stay in my life, even if we were just friends. And it became more then that, friends with benefits I guess, but I loved him and I wanted him to stay in my life no matter what. Some more things happened, and then he hit me, twice. After the second time, I just...felt nothing for him. Then I walked in on him fucking another female.

The love went, and the fear came mixed with anger. I retaliated and lowered myself by hurting him back with words since I couldn't hurt him without him hurting me. And so I cut off all ties with him, and for a while it was hard... Like really hard, I wanted to call him because I "said I loved him" even though I did not feel it anymore. And he was such a part of my life for two years that it was just hard to ignore that. But it got easier with time and then I met a new guy, and I think of him less and less as the days go by.

He did manage to apologize to me, a year later. I accepted it, because it was the right thing to do and left it at that.

So... I am conflicted. The pain of love is unbearable however when its' real and true, even if it's for a short while, it is the best feeling you could ever have. Emotions are just there to mess with our heads. x3
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Aniihya on Tue Jul 27, 2010 5:32 pm

I have loved before. She was a beautiful half Italian girl. I was 17. she was 19. I had lost my virginity to her. We loved each other for about 6 months. But the love was going away: She seemed more like a best friend. I wanted to go on a real date with her maybe to the movies or in a romantic restaurant. We ended up going to the pub to get drunk because she wanted to. She got into fights with big mouthed Turks and usually beat the crap out of them. What do you expect from someone who just got her license to teach martial arts. Then one morning I got a call from her father. He said that his daughter was in jail for beating a guy comatose on her way through Austria to her parents house. She got 8 months prison. I broke up with her. I didnt want to be together with a criminal girl with a tomboy attitude.
Then a year ago, I met a nice Jordanian girl who was visiting her grandparents for a couple weeks.We understood each other good. When she went back home to a subarb of Amman, we stayed in contact over ICQ. Soon she started saying things that started to creep me out such as I want to marry you and have many children with you. She couldnt have gotten pressure from her family because her family isnt Muslim. She then finally came over in May again and I kept feeling more for her. She then somehow got me in bed and weeks later she thanks me. I asked her why she thanked me. She responded with: "I am pregnant." First I denied my love towards her, but now I want to ask her to marry me. Problem is: I am too poor to buy a ring at the moment.
In the time between the two girlfriends, I often went out to clubs and woke up the next morning with one or more women in the same bed. I used to be totally unpopular, even now I am not the most handsome guy but my friends always tell me that although my looks arent that good, my personality (especially when I am drunk) is charming without boundries, sophisticated, intellectual, friendly etc. They make it sound like they have fallen in love with me too. Friends referring to 3 guys and a girl (plus the girl already has a boyfriend who is one of the three guys). It gets bad and sometimes annoying when everyone wants to buy you a drink, especially the handsome gay guy with the geled hair and the suit like outfit eyes you from the other end of the bar just to come and say: "Hey. They say you are awfully sweet. May I buy you a drink?"
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Kestrel on Tue Jul 27, 2010 6:31 pm

I prefer to have loved and lost. I don't think I could stand it to admire someone from a distance for one. I outright hate that kind of suspense and I prefer outright rejection over waiting doing nothing. I also can't help but wonder how empty and aimless my life would be without love. Don't get me wrong, my last relationship lasted 2 years and it had me in a horrible mood for months when it ended. I lost close friends, God even my dog died. But aside making it all one big emo-rant, there's one trick that pulls me through:

Getting over it and going on with my life.

I'd rather deal with pain than aimlessness. Simply because I know how to. It passes and although it may take some time, it is much better than constantly wondering what if; curiosity kills. I don't drown in sadness and self-pity, which is something I got lucky with, I suppose. I just get really pissed off at myself. If I wouldn't pick shit up again I'd become so frustrated with my sad little ass I could throw me off a bridge. So it is more me telling myself to shape the fuck up and deal with it than anything else.

And yeah, once I'm through that phase, I rarely linger on the past. 'cause it is, y'know, the past. I'm really simple and straight-forward in that. My friend taught me to take the good and leave the bad behind and that is... Well pretty much the only intelligent thing to do with the past. Make your mistakes, keep the lessons forget the shame. The pain will pass, the memories you can cherish. I don't regret many of my actions. If I had never loved I'd be a completely different person. I don't know who I would have been. I drew so much strength and wisdom from people over the years, and am happy with what I've become. In fact, I'm absolutely terrified of how I'd have turned out if I didn't. For that reason alone, everything was worth everything.

'sides, I don't wonder if I'll fall in love again, I know I will. And until then, friendship and one-night stands suffice.
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Gabriel_Whist on Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:28 pm

Honestly... love is nothing more than the hormones, and chemical and electrical impulses in the brain. I don't believe really believe in 'love'. There are just friends, people you want to bone, and then friends you want to bone.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Patcharoo on Tue Jul 27, 2010 8:59 pm

Loved and lost.

You can't live your life in fear of losing and feeling hurt.
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby DreamingForever on Tue Jul 27, 2010 9:57 pm

Well, before I answer, I have to say something. In the society we live in, love is constantly shoved down our throats. I grew up with Disney movies with their perfect happily ever after, which is only one example of how love was portrayed in this day and age. There are books, TV, music, and a whole lotta other shit. How can someone not want love after growing up around it?

I dreamed of finding my ‘Prince Charming’ and getting my happily ever after all throughout life. Hell, I still want that. And the big white wedding? Count me in. The whole idea of being able to tie myself to the one person I love most in this whole world… I can’t even describe it. I’m one of those girls who has been dreaming of her future since she was reaaaaal young.

Now to the question. As someone who has never loved like that, I’d have to say it is better to have loved and lost then to never have loved at all. I can’t imagine the pain of losing your love, but I can imagine the feeling of having someone like that to call your own. I think the pain is worth all the amazing memories and the chance to find the one.

Annnnd now I’ve ranted and realized I sound like a lovesick fool. But I guess it’s the truth, eh? ^_^
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Din on Tue Jul 27, 2010 11:49 pm

Perhaps it is a gift to have a full choice of whether or not to brood, but what of those who find that it isn't? What of those who earnestly think of other things not just to forget the past, but because there are more immediately important things? We say that it is better to have loved and lost, prescribing moving on, but to those who have had this experience, surely it isn't as easy as that.

And surely this isn't the only option. What of those who loved, lost and gave up the endeavor? Does it work?

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Kronos on Wed Jul 28, 2010 12:14 am

To have. Love is harder to find than sex, though.

I'm not talking about platonic love when I say that.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Kestrel on Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:02 am

Din wrote:Perhaps it is a gift to have a full choice of whether or not to brood, but what of those who find that it isn't? What of those who earnestly think of other things not just to forget the past, but because there are more immediately important things? We say that it is better to have loved and lost, prescribing moving on, but to those who have had this experience, surely it isn't as easy as that.

And surely this isn't the only option. What of those who loved, lost and gave up the endeavor? Does it work?

I really don't know anyone who has given up love entirely and is a content person, unless they devoted their entire lives to their children or religion or something, ie a substitute. I do know a lot of people fooling their selves they are happy while they aren't, and many realise this over the years and get into manic depressions. I'm not saying it is impossible to do so and be happy regardless, but you'd be the first person I've met to ever manage that.

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Queen of Ice on Wed Jul 28, 2010 3:02 am

Loved and lost. Call me crazy but the ups and downs are what make life fantastic. I look back on miserable times and I think to myself, "Damn, that was fucked up," but it makes being happy now well... possible. You can't know happiness without sadness. You've gotta just take love and find the beauty in it while you have it, and when it's over, you'll be sad, but that's a hell of a lot better than waking up one day realizing you've never really been happy. I don't see what the point of life is if you never love. I mean, how else will you ever become happy? You have to have something or someone you love- it's the only way.

Think about it- what do all people have in common? What's the one universal goal everyone (who isn't afflicted with some sort of condition that makes them think otherwise) wants to accomplish? Everyone wants to become "happy". What is happiness? How can you define it? It just... is. It's just a feeling that no words can describe. You can explain how it happens biologically with chemicals in your brain, but you can't describe the very essence of it. The only word that comes close to defining it is love. The two are so closely intertwined that you could never have one without the other.

So I disagree that you'll never be able to regret not loving, because you'll never experience happiness and what else could you do but regret a life filled with no emotion? Happiness and love are the things that give life any meaning at all. The pursuit of these feelings are what life is all about, and taking the good and bad is all a part of it. That's life. How can you not love and say you've lived? If you don't ever love anything, what's the point of life? What will you do? That's all we do as humans: try to find happiness through people and things we love. Life has no meaning without love. You'd never be inspired to do anything. Without love, there is no life, only survival. You're simply sitting there, surviving- meeting your basic needs- not living.

How could so many of you wish away love? To wish away love is to wish away with life itself. Is sadness really that bad? Do you not come out stronger and filled with more happiness than ever before? Sorrow is just as beautiful as joy- maybe not when you're feeling it, but later it just shows you how strong you are, how much you've grown, learned, how much better you've become, and how lucky you are to be alive and loving.

Even if you can't find the beauty in sadness, isn't better to look back on life saying, "Well, I'm miserable now, but DAMN did I have some amazing times before," rather than saying, "Well, I'm not sad, but I've never once been happy. I just... am."

Now I'm extremely tired and that all may be a redundant nonsense-rant, but I truly believe that the only way to find any meaning in your life is through love. Even if you lose it, hell even if you die miserable and alone, at least you lived! At least you experienced it! No one can take your memories of the way you felt away from you, and you'll be able to say that at one point in your life you were a happy person- that you felt joy and love. I can't imagine a life without love... especially as a writer! What on earth would you write about without being able to feel joy or sorrow? Nothing beautiful. Maybe something shallow, maybe something very descriptive, but nothing with true emotion! How can we as humans live without anger, jealousy, joy, envy, sorrow- these are the things that make us! What is the point without them, I ask you? Why take up space on this big blue sphere if you're not going to feel anything?


TL;DR version-

Love of someone or something is the only way to happiness. With happiness comes all other emotions. Denying yourself of love is denying yourself of all emotion and thus all drive to achieve anything in life. What is the point of living an emotionless, goaless, loveless life, I ask you? Passion and feeling is what makes us what we are!

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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Cloasse on Wed Jul 28, 2010 5:53 pm

Well, personally I think I know what it feels like to experience on-going love. I'm getting married to the first and only man I'll ever be with, because I love him and he, me. A few years ago, Jay, my fiancé, said something to me that has stuck with me ever since: "amantes sunt amentes, and you are my eternity and forever." The Latin, as far as we are aware, means 'lovers are lunatics', and this occurred after a particularly rough patch in my health.

This holds such meaning to me because it's true. Jay isn't ugly or stupid, he didn't have to 'settle' for the disabled, sickened girl, but he wanted to, needed to, because he loves me. We've known each other since the age of nine, and there have been many ups and down since. Love isn't perfect. Love is irrational. It can't be controlled. You don't look for the perfect man, woman or it only to settle with someone safe. You don't look for the dangerous ride and the perfection incarnate only to settle with a half-hearted lover and someone you can't help but pick faults in. What you do look for is the person who creates such a bond with you that you feel like you are their idea of perfection. You know you're not the smartest or the prettiest, but they make you feel that way through the simplest of actions.

Or at least, that's what it is in my experience.

As for the pressing question of 'to have loved and lost or to have never loved at all...' Well... Personally? If I lost Jay, be it through his leaving me or this plane of existence, I couldn't survive. He is my strength, my being and my wall, and he is the one that showers me in praise and walks with me through the storms that I face. It's not a case of his being the protector or because he keeps a stoic face through my trials, it's a case of his being with me, utterly and completely. Without that, I wouldn't have had a snowball's hope in Hell of ever making it this far. Friends and family can only do so much. I tell Jay things that I would never tell anyone else. When I hurt, he is the first to know of it, if I can help it. I don't feel weak when I'm around him, because he doesn't look down at me in the bed and tell me that he's sorry I feel like I'm dying. He climbs into the bed with me and shares that pain.

So... Yeah. I'd rather have never had Jay's love than to have had it and gone through the pain of losing my crutch. I have enough trouble walking as it is without taking away the help I need.

That's just my opinion, though...

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Cloasse
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Re: To Have Loved or Not

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Saken on Wed Jul 28, 2010 7:02 pm

I do not believe that love can simply be given up on. True, it may seem that way-- "Well, he hurt me, so I guess I need to leave, because I know that's bad and," the like, but in reality- it does not work.

Look at all those people who were locked inside of a marriage full of abuse, violence. Why do they stay if their 'love' is not love anymore? And yet they stay, to hear those bitter-words of hatred slip out from someone's they love's mouth, for the hope of a phrase, for an action, to rekindle this flame that the other person may not seem to have.

No.

Once you find this 'one' person who you feel so completely- so utterly for, there is no 'going back' there is no 'giving up' there is no end to this relationship.

No matter what you do, or what you tell yourself, there is no going back when you love some for that is not love, not real love, to be cliche.

It's Real Love that you'll get people who will be silent through years and years of abuse-violence-torture.

Through the knowledge that their loved one did something horrible, bad, something.

Love makes people blind. In one form or another.

And it never, truly, goes away.

So, it is better to not love than to lose -- or, even, better to not love in some places, to not give yourself to someone, just in case you do love them.

And then you let them do anything so you can still be near them, so that they can still love you.

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Saken
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