I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

a topic in Flame Wars, a part of the RPG forum.

PLEASE keep ANY quarrel to these forums. This is not an ammo dump, either. Please TRY to resolve your issues PEACEFULLY.

I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skuld on Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:18 am

chambers08 wrote:I hate the Golden Compass. They're trying to kill God so I will never touch the books or get close to seeing the movie, but that's just my opinion.


Alright, I am going to write this, but already I know it's going to taken the wrong way. Regardless. Here goes.

Warning: None of the following material is meant as a personal attack towards the view holder or the view, but instead the close-mindedness of a culture that is cutting its community off, and trying to make a statement.

It blows my mind that people can be so close-minded. And chamber08, I'm not just taking about this comment, but the world that has taken this side with you. I was brought up Catholic (father) mixed with Presbyterian (mother), and I still find these books intriguing and ultimately one of my favorite series.

The way Christians approach the rest of the world astounds me. And for all the years that prayers and hymns were drilled into my head I have come to the point where I have made my choices, and I have not allowed myself to stay in a dark and isolated place that the church leaders would keep their followers in. It seems to me that so many times the church asks the congregation to be a pack of ignorant, uneducated, lemmings that how one would actually assimilate into the real world is beyond me.

Allowing yourself to held down, and closing yourself off from the greatness that is modern literature (well...some of it) because the church is misrepresenting a certain stance is so far behind my scope of vision that I struggle through these sorts of responses.

Look, just because I read a book by an atheist does not mean I am going to become a devout atheist.
Just because I read a book by a Christian (J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, etc.) does not mean I am going to become a devout Christan.

I respect that there are some people that choose not to read these books based an a level headed bit of knowledge. The people that say, "Look, that's great, but I choose to keep those sorts of things out of my head. I know that there are people that feel differently, and I know that had I chosen to read these I would not go straight to Hell, but at the same time, I just don't want to." That's great, fine and dandy. But as a reader, and a person in the real world you recognize the difference between fact and fiction, which leads you to you own conclusions. You should be able to differentiate between what you think is right and wrong. And just because you don't agree with someone else's opinion does not mean you should close yourself off from a great piece of literature.

And by the way, they don't actually try to kill "God". But if people who claimed that had actually read the books really had, they might have a more accurate picture of the novels.

Thanks for listening.
Image
"Spartans! Prepare for glory!"

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Skuld
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Beta Tester Contributor Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby quidhala on Fri Dec 28, 2007 10:35 am

I would like to submit this: What if the books aren't trying to kill god, but instead look to overthrow a false god who has been proped up by so much power that it obscures the true mystery and wonder of the universe? Would you be interested then?

I expose myself to views I don't share all the time. If he's good for nothing else, at least Bill O'Reilly can get my blood up. Sometimes it's fun to get angry. Besides, you have to keep an eye on what your enemies are up to. ;)

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
quidhala
Member for 12 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Village Alchemist on Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:39 pm

I went to see the movie with my cousin the day before yesterday. I didn't even know there WAS a book until after we left the theater, and he started comparing the book and movie.

Anyway, I didn't see any God-killing in that movie. It seemed more like a comment on public education than religion.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Village Alchemist
Member for 12 years
Promethean Conversation Starter Author Inspiration Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Greeter Person of Interest Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Village Alchemist on Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:41 pm

Skuld wrote:The way Christians approach the rest of the world astounds me. And for all the years that prayers and hymns were drilled into my head I have come to the point where I have made my choices, and I have not allowed myself to stay in a dark and isolated place that the church leaders would keep their followers in. It seems to me that so many times the church asks the congregation to be a pack of ignorant, uneducated, lemmings that how one would actually assimilate into the real world is beyond me.

Congregation? You mean the flock? :wink:

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Village Alchemist
Member for 12 years
Promethean Conversation Starter Author Inspiration Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Greeter Person of Interest Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skuld on Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:53 pm

Ah, yes. The alleged "God killing" does not come into until the third book.
;)

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Skuld
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Beta Tester Contributor Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby quidhala on Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:01 pm

Now I am Fucking pissed off! I didn't see the movie yet, but Honey told me that they truncated the ending of the movie, whether it was just to make it a more happy ending or to motivate fans to shell out when the next movie comes along to see the real ending I don't know. Add on to that all the dumbing down of the plot that I've also heard about.

But holly crap! Pullman, I put all these things at your feet! J'accuse! You should have stood up to The Man and said, "This aggression will not stand, man!"

Can nothing be made that isn't rendered into lard by comities and perception polling? I'm gonna throw a Goddamn monkey-wrench in the gears of this industry! I wish the writer's union would stick it to all of the producers until they hemorrhage capital and their children are forced to go to public schools! Rise up and destroy my puppets! Burn down the decaying mortar of Rome! Let the rubble decompose, purifying the earth in a baptism of feces to create a fertile land where Mammon holds no sway! I defy you stars!!!!

<passes out>

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
quidhala
Member for 12 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skuld on Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:06 pm

Get this.
This was the conversation I had in the theater with my best friend and roommate.

Her: I heard the cut the end out.
Me: They can't. That's ridiculous.
Her: Yeah, someone misinformed must have been blowing smoke up my ass.
Me: Yeah.
Her: ...but the music is kind of swelling...
Me: ...Uh...
Her: ...kind of like they're going to cut to the credits...
Me: *panicing* No way, that's impossible.
...*cut to black screen*...
Her and I: ...They're faking us out...
...*credits roll*...
Me (in the middle of the theater): *stands abruptly* THAT DID NOT JUST FUCKING HAPPEN.

It was horrible.
I cried.
Srsly.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Skuld
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Beta Tester Contributor Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Faithy on Sun Dec 30, 2007 11:41 pm

That was about the same kind of response Tonia and I had when we went to see it. Of course, neither of us have read the books yet, but we both seriously plan on it. :/
"...la manière vraie au coeur d'un homme est de six pouces de métal entre ses nervures"

The worst part is... I would still die... for you.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Faithy
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Author Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Novelist Greeter Arc Warden Contributor Beta Tester Concierge Visual Appeal Lifegiver Tipworthy Tipworthy Tipworthy Tipworthy Person of Interest

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby quidhala on Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:08 am

Wow! Even though you hadn't read the books you felt there was something wrong with the ending? That just goes to show what a bunch of ham fisted hacks were working on this movie. AAARRRRGGGGG!!! HULK SMASH!!!!!

I fear I will be terribly dissapointed when I go see it. I might have to wait until the next film is about to be released before I watch it or I might take out my anger on a defensless box of kittens.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
quidhala
Member for 12 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Lord Saladin on Mon Dec 31, 2007 3:42 am

Those poor kittens, quidhala! The kittens dammit!

Wow! I do believe, however, that is the first time I have seen you swear. You go dude! Vent that anger! It makes life interesting.

But please, leave the kittens out of it. Unless, of course, it involves hydrochloric acid and ethenol. ;) ((A story for perhaps another time))

But yes, I do agree. And, not just in regards to the film/book in discussion here, as I have neither read nor watched.

But, let's take The Da Vinci Code. The Catholic religion, or at least its major players and leaders, kicked off like a horny rabbit denied a fuck. And for what purpose?

If they had taken the time to read the book, they would realise that, quite obviously, it was all purely fictitious. The book, which I loved, was in no way a religious "let's discredit the Catholic church" piece of work. It was a well constructed thriller.

It just pisses me off that some people will take anything as an excuse to be a moany old grouch.

((Te he he, I used to love Sesame Street))

So, ja, my little bit of an input. Simply because I can.

:D

Lord Saladin
Image

Please tell me now what life is, Please tell me now what love is... Again, tell me what life is.

Tiko says: Saladin: Damn it, leave my hole alone.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Lord Saladin
Contributor
Contributor
Member for 13 years
Promethean Conversation Starter Author Inspiration Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Donated! Contributor Greeter World Builder Arc Warden Visual Appeal Tipworthy Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skuld on Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:27 am

quidhala wrote:I fear I will be terribly dissapointed when I go see it. I might have to wait until the next film is about to be released before I watch it or I might take out my anger on a defensless box of kittens.


Here was my response, quidhala.

That's what I wrote upon returning home and realizing that life was no longer worth living. Okay...that's a little dramatic, but still! You get the picture.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Skuld
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Beta Tester Contributor Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby attackofthespiders on Tue Jan 01, 2008 5:59 am

Admin EDIT!!

SPOILERS! READ AT YOUR OWN RISK!

I think that this issue has been blown way out of proportions. For crying out loud, they are calling Phillip Pullman, "The most dangerous writer in all of Europe. And the whole "killing god" thing is a little ridiculous. What I remember from the series, and I may be wrong becuase it was a while since I read it, is that the father was leading a war against the false god the Magisterium(sp?) set up. More or less like Moses destroying the golden calf. That seems more like a pro religious statement than an anti religious one. And if this is such hate filled book that will, "destroy the Cristian fiber of the youth" where was the GOP noise machine when the book was first published? Do they think so lowly of children that they don't believe they would read on their own without it becoming a movie? It is the same thing as with the Harry Potter series. Well before that wand waving Brit filled the mind of children a whole generation read Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit but society didn't come crashing down around our ears yet people only made a stink about it when it became a movie. Or The Davinci Code. It isn't any more anti religious then any of the books he has written so why is it such a big deal. Why Christian leaders wanting their followers to be unread and unquestioning? Basically because it them easier to control.

Sorry, got a little worked up there.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
attackofthespiders
Member for 11 years
Conversation Starter Friendly Beginnings

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Skuld on Tue Jan 01, 2008 10:19 am

SPOILER ALERT!

More of what it comes down to is this:

God is a poser. Lord Asriel and Mrs. Coulter are hell-bent set on destroying this idol and letting the universe go back it its rightful flow. It has nothing to do with killing the true god. The problem is that when Pullman defines this new "poser" he also makes it clear that this being is posing as God because there is no God, and he was just around at the time and decided he could be all powerful if he pretended to be.

Either way. It's ridiculous that the Christian mind set is so closed off, and focused on being "pure minds" that they neglect the rest of the world they share with us, and leave their children to be knowledgeless shells spewing Bible lessons from when they were five.

It sickens me. Truly, it does.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Skuld
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Beta Tester Contributor Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby quidhala on Tue Jan 01, 2008 11:07 am

Thomas doubted and asked for proof, and he did not believe until he got it. What makes him so special? Why don't I get proof?

Why can't people accept that faith is a delicate muscle that needs to be stretched and strengthened? Otherwise the muscle atrophies and when a test comes and it requires flexing it tears. They are over protective parents who cover their children in antiseptic and fill them with antibiotics until their bodies forget how to fight of invaders.

I have no problem believing as I believe in spite of things. It is because of “spite” that faith is much stronger than most people give it credit for.

In my minds the contradictions inherent in faith do not take away from God. Good v. Evil, Omnipotence v. Freewill, Fact v. Faith, Order v. Chaos, Something coming from Nothing. I believe that contradiction and paradox help to suggest the presence of something that is truely unknowable. Like negative space suggests an image. Like a dark spot in space suggests a black-hole.

Why are these people, who claim to believe so strongly, afraid?

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
quidhala
Member for 12 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Vexar on Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:46 pm

ME = Christian.


It's people like this who make me feel like I have to do things to make up for it -_-;

I'm extremely open minded and I thoroughly enjoy others believes and learning of them. I don't think anywhere in the bible that it said you can't read a book on magic. IN FACT, the freaking thing says magic exists... Idiots most people are.

Anyways, I'm a big fan of science and discovering the beginning of the universe. If it has to do with space or the ultimate theory of unification I know quite a bit about it. But, it doesn't mean I don't believe in god. I guess I've changed my religion to suit me more. I don't know, but in reality, everyone does such things.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Vexar
Member for 12 years
Promethean Conversation Starter Author Inspiration World Builder Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Contributor Person of Interest Beta Tester Tipworthy Streamwatcher Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Candlelight May on Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:04 pm

quidhala wrote:Why can't people accept that faith is a delicate muscle that needs to be stretched and strengthened? Otherwise the muscle atrophies and when a test comes and it requires flexing it tears. They are over protective parents who cover their children in antiseptic and fill them with antibiotics until their bodies forget how to fight of invaders.


That's a fantastic comparison. Unfortunately, most of the "over-protective parents" that have rebelled so strongly against The Golden Compass don't believe it's an accurate description. Moral and spiritual trials are indeed evil invaders into their children's lives, but... they think that insulation against them is the only protection. They're wrong.

God asked Israel to insulate themselves by killing off the pagan nations, if you take the word of the Hebrew Bible. It didn't work; they couldn't cut themselves off from the world around them, even on the few occasions that they did try to follow the command completely. The Hebrews still suffered, despite their insulatory efforts.

Jesus, on the other hand, radically denied the insulation principle by immersing himself in "sinner" culture. (Note the scare quotes. They're there for a reason.) But rather than trying to isolate himself or his followers, he stepped in to heal what was broken. Physically, relationally, emotionally... Jesus didn't try to hide from contamination, he met it head on and healed it.

That isn't what most Christians throughout history have done. I think that the outcry against The Golden Compass -- along with Harry Potter, The DaVinci Code, and so many other works -- is just another example of Christians mistakenly believing that a duck-and-cover approach is ideal. According to the example Christ set for them, it's not.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Candlelight May
Member for 11 years
Conversation Starter Author Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby UnderINK on Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:54 pm

I've read this whole series and for the people who mentioned the movie not involving god-killing, that's for two reasons.

1.) The first book had little to do with God. It only introduced the antagonist, the Church, and its branches called the Magisterium and the General Oblation Board.

2.) They removed any real noticable references to the Church in the movie specifically to avoid pissing off Catholics (although it didn't work). So you see even less of it in the movie.

However, if that's their approach, I don't know how they will do the second book as a movie (which they're planning), since the entire point of it is to kill God and restore a Republic of Heaven.

Yes, the whole point to the series IS to kill God and Metatron. Dust, the thing they're so worried about in the first book, is the substance that makes up angels and God. God is just another powerful angel in the story, the first one to be formed when Dust (dark matter) condensed. NOT an omnipotent creator. The point of the story is to eliminate God because he is an Authority, a Dictator-sort, a tyrant. But it was written by an atheist, what do you expect? I loved the series myself, and I think people need to chill out. It's really no more heretical than Holy Blood, Holy Grail claiming Jesus wasn't chaste and had a daughter and married and had sex with a woman. I mean, come on.

Attackofthespiders, you're remembering wrong. The original idea behind killing God is to kill the source of Dust, but you learn later on in the next books that God isn't the source of Dust---he's made up of Dust, therefore not being omnipotent. It brings god down to a more human level. He's an angel like the others, but he was the first one, and when the next ones were created he tricked them into thinking he created them, and therefore set up a dictatorship under that guise. There's no mention of another God in the story that would mean the one being set out to be killed is a false one. No, that is indeed his portrayal of the actual God, and Pullman himself was quoted as saying that the entire point of the series was to kill God. It is a very antireligious book, but that's none of the Catholics business because it's his own personal view. Pullman is an atheist, after all.

And by the way, they don't actually try to kill "God"


Actually, again, they do.

In the story, Lyra plays the part of Eve. At a point in the story she is supposed to be tempted by the Serpent (Dr. Malone). The Church shifts its focus from the idea of the Authority to the destruction of Eve, by tracking the Serpent. Lord Asriel assembles an army in his fortress in the north, consisting of rebel angels and creatures from all over the parallel universes. If you remember, the two angles Burach and Bathalamos follow Metatron to the Clouded Mountain and learn of God's true nature and his ability to be killed, because as the Subtle Knife can cut through Dust and the alethiometer can communicate with it, and God is made up of the same dark matter, the idea is that God is not omnipotent and in fact is just another angel and can be eliminated. The point of the story is a second rebellion against Heaven, a successful one, because the first one did not succeed because the Subtle Knife did not exist at the time. It is the only weapon capable of destroying angels, and therefore also The Authority, or God.


At the end they rebuild the Republic of Heaven, in the absence of the Authority of course, so you can piece together for yourself what happens.

Yeah, I've read the series twice.
Image
•civilization begins with order, grows with liberty and dies with chaos

My Roleplays
Without Absolution- a civilization on the brink of destruction

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
UnderINK
Member for 12 years
Promethean Conversation Starter Author Inspiration Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Lifegiver

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jakinbandw on Thu Mar 06, 2008 6:35 pm

I personally am a Christian.

There, I said it...

I muddled my way through the Golden Compass and winced a few times. I don't like to see the church in a fantasy book any more than most people like to see Bush in a modern day fantasy book. But even so I muddled through to see where it was going.

And I made it mostly through the Subtle Knife when I finally gave up on the series. I can't tell you what it was, but I felt actually repelled by the book. Now this was 5 years ago so I don't remember much, but I to remember wondering why this sort of stuff was allowed. If the church in the book had been instead blacks or gays, there would have been a massive public backlash. Instead I felt that because they portrayed the church as the bad guys they had a free get out of jail card. I have come to realize that is how it is. As far as the world is concerned, the church is the new Nazi's. If you don't get what I mean by that, go back to things like Indiana Jones and even old bugs bunny cartoons.

In short I have nothing against killing god, but instead I have something against making an entire modern social group the villains.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Jakinbandw
Member for 11 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Zhelir Darkfall on Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:32 pm

Touching, but this has been done as well to Arabs, Germans, Russians, the Government... I think you get the point, I could go on for a long while.

The vast majority of literature requires a bad guy, and most of the more enjoyable forms don't make it the random psychopath with no clear goals or motivation. Someone has to take the fall. Either it's a made-up group, or it's a real group.

From here, I can only base on what I've heard, as I never read the books, and movie looked dumb as dirt. My guess is that this was intended as satire against the more hardcore members of "the Church," (my guess is Catholics, as they come under fire most, and it's not hard to see why) criticizing some of the more asinine rules and the holier-than-thou attitude many of its follow exhibit.

Then again, I could be wrong. Maybe they just chose "the Church" because it fit the villainous role the best.
STAVE: Commala-come-ki,
There's a time to live and one to die.
With your back against the final wall
Ya gotta let the bullets fly.

RESPONSE: Commala-come-ki!
Let the bullets fly!
Don't 'ee mourn for me, my lads
When it comes my day to die.

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

Zhelir Darkfall
GWC Veteran
Member for 14 years
Progenitor Conversation Starter Author Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings Greeter Beta Tester Contributor

Re: I'm sorry, but when you act like this...

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Axanthisis on Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:59 am

I'll have to agree with most of whats been said. I am a Christian, and I don't get tangled up too much in all the Harry Potter is evil, or Golden Compass needs to burn or whatever propaganda. I think if I read the DaVinci code, my church would exercise me...

It's really kind of ridiculous. I mean you can take anything and say that it's evil (my mother swore that Pokemon was Demonic...). By the same note you can also take just about anything and staple "Christian" themes to it. Some people compare Harry Potter to Christ (a bad comparison since I read the first book, and all he did was everything he was told not to do). It's all about the Romans 14. If you are strong enough in your faith that you can eat the meat which was cooked by pagans, then good. If you are devout enough in your faith that you don't want to eat what was meant to worship pagan gods, then good. The important thing is not to cause your brother to stumble by your faith.

What does that mean? Well I don't think berating people because they are "close-minded" will solve much, but I don't think judging people because they are "worldly" will make better Christians either. Maybe it's just me, but couldn't we all get along instead?

Tip jar: the author of this post has received 0.00 INK in return for their work.

User avatar
Axanthisis
Member for 12 years
Conversation Starter Conversationalist Friendly Beginnings


Post a reply

Make a Donation

$

RPG relies exclusively on user donations to support the platform.

Donors earn the "Contributor" achievement and are permanently recognized in the credits. Consider donating today!

 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests

cron