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Technological Possibilities

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Technological Possibilities

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Mon May 08, 2006 7:39 pm

OOC: Since Future Kiyoshi and I can't resolve our differing views on the Technological Possibilities presented by the Gundam Universes, at Miyumi's suggestion, I'm making this debate topic so that we don't argue during RP.

IC: OK. I misquoted Wikipedia. Two RX-78-2 were destroyed, not a 78-1, and-3. Sorry. Here is the article.

RX-78-3 3rd Gundam "G-3 Gundam"

The RX-78-3 "G-3 Gundam" with Beam Rifle and ShieldDuring the attack on Side 7, in September UC 0079, two of the three RX-78-2 Gundam protoype mobile suits were destroyed. The destroyed parts made their way to the Pegasus-Class assault cruiser White Base, and then to the Earth Federation's General HQ in Jaburo. Once there, the parts were cobbled together and the RX-78-3 "G-3" Gundam was born. The G-3 Gundam became a testbed for the magnectic coating that was later applied to Amuro Ray's RX-78-2 Gundam. Visually, the G-3 is very similar looking to the Gundam, except for its gray and blue paint scheme.

In the novel version of Mobile Suit Gundam, the G-3 became Amuro Ray's mobile suit in the later half of the war after his Gundam was destroyed in battle with Zeon Newtype Lalah Sune. It had the magnetic coating added to the joints to increase response time for its pilot. Other than the gray color scheme, it is identical to RX-78-2.


Since the novel version of MS Gundam is not widely considered official, I took some liberties with the placement of the G-3. If you read Graystar, it is with a new carrier, and though I have not explained the background of the G-3 in the novel yet, I will. I'm going to cover it eventually, and adapt the stories to mesh. I've intended to do that since I started the story.

As for the shield acting as a primitive waverider, I had already thought it through. Think about this: If yuo take a piece of paper and place your hand on the back, then quickly move your hnd around in straight linew, the paper tends to be held against your hand because of air resistance. The G-3 was the proverbial hand, and the shield was the proverbial paper. The arms could have been dmaged. I'll also cover that in the story when I get there.

And what makes you think Luna Titanium Alloy wouldn't survive re-entry. Our space shuttles do. I know they use ceramic plates to withstand the heat (I went to space camp), and that the plates are not perfect, but don't you think that the Gundam's armor has to be better than that?

And about the comment of Luna Titanium alloy being inferior to Gundanium? Inferior to Gundarium, yes. But you can't compare it to Gundanium. Notice the spelling difference.

And the Newtype factor presents a large amount of possible liberties. How do you know that the dimensional shift didn't enhance, or modify Eros' powers? In a way, bringing up soothing thoughts was kind of communicting subliminally.

Please, Kiyoshi, argue back.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Mon May 08, 2006 9:12 pm

First off, don't get your information souly from Wikipedia. The articles, especially on topics like Mobile Suit Gundam, are usually highly incorrect.

The G-3 was built using the remaining spare parts of what remained of the two other salvaged RX-78-2's and built on Luna II. Which....is in SPACE. This is from the MSV manuals, which are indeed considered cannon.

I didn't even bother going in on how the "Graystar" couldn't exist. Nor would it likely have a Guntank and Guncannon as part of it's forces.

Did you not see my fucking pictures? The Gundam's shield is presumable made of Luna Titanium or possibly weaker materials and it got completly destroyed, EARLY into the atmosphere. Which means the shield would not have survived at all.

This still does not explain how you could land on the ground. As I've already explained, you would have been crushed. Simple physics.

Gundarium and Luna Titanium are the same damn thing. Gundarium is the Zeon product.

The reason I brought up GUNDANIUM, was for the fact that I needed to use evidence from the Gundam W universe. Clearly, at the end of New Mobile Report: Gundam W, Episode 49, the Wing Zeor is falling through the atmosphere and getting destroyed. As shown in the series, Gundanium is a highly strong material, which can withstand practically anything (though this fact can also be extended if a main character is in another mobile suit, leo's for example in Endless Waltz). So thanks for taking things out of context.

About your newtype powers, based on pretty much every given form of media that I have seen and/or read from the gundam universe (which is a damn lot) Newtype's can limitly communicate with non-newtypes. Unlike you, I like to go by cold hard facts presented by the creators of the universe, and not go around and fuck with principals that they have set in place. Which I've pretty much presented with everything but the newtype thing, which I have no idea how to do that, sicne it would require retranslating shit and/or making transcripts of several key Gundam episodes.
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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Karaudu on Tue May 09, 2006 5:07 am

sorry, but i'm going to have to argue with Kiyoshi on this one at every point. He has come to a point where he knows more about gundam then I do. Which scares me.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Tue May 09, 2006 8:04 am

You can't be agreeing with him!? Have you even read the post on what he said he did in the G-3? It's ridiculous. Am I going to have to go and make screen caps of Z Gundam now as well? Hell I have every series but G right now, I'm sure I can find more examples somewhere.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby miyumi on Tue May 09, 2006 8:17 am

I think I'm going to have to agree with Kiyoshi, and not just because of the evidence either. Just from watching the show, it makes sense that Gundanium would not survive. Also, the spinning thing works for a helicoptor, but if you ever get the chance, research skydiving. They spin to go faster. And you would definitely lose the shield if you weren't holding onto it.

Now, where I'd be iffy is if you were laying flat on your stomach with shield in front of you, using the cooling gel, and being caught in the air by something.

The atmosphere is extremely powerful. It takes a meteor the size of Rhode Island and completely incinerates it. Never underestimate the forces of nature.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Tue May 09, 2006 9:28 am

Okay, I'll concede on the spinny thing. I didn't think it would make it go faster.

I do not only get my info from Wikipedia. It just happens that it is one of the few Gundam info containing sites that is not blocked by my schools filter program. I also do not own the MSV book thing. And I also don't own all of the series. I am neither rich, or that much of a geek to own everything. I do, however, have a very active imagination, and love to come up with theories.

As for the Graystar, I'm just making up a story, and that is the ship's name for the time being. I could change it to White Base Jr. Would that satify you? And who's to say that the, due to the data gathered on how easily Gundam's shield was always destroyed, that for its newly reconstructed G-3, the EFSF didn't develop a stronger shield?

Guncannon and Guntank. Ever read the Lost War Chronicles manga? They have a Guntank. Even though most of the EFSF's MS were destroyed at Side 7, they could have used the blueprints and few surviving parts to build another set.

Seeing as this is all fictitious anyways, can't I just make up some stuff that seems semi-logical?

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby miyumi on Tue May 09, 2006 9:37 am

We are simply trying to stay as true to the physics and science of the Gundam world and the real world as possible.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Tue May 09, 2006 9:48 am

All right. Have you ever looked at the RX-78 series of Gundam? It has yellow box thingys on its waist armor. Lets pretend that the panels open up and Parachutes unfold. Surely this is feasible. The Heavyarms, Nataku, and the others except for Wing Zero Kai used Parachutes to re-enter. Maybe I'll edit My other post.

By having G-3 re-enter vertically, I minimized the surface exposure to heat.

In the story that I'm writing, the G-3's arms will be replaced by Project G4 arms. In case you don't know, that means arms like Gundam Alex's.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby miyumi on Tue May 09, 2006 9:54 am

You also increased the speed of the gundam as it entered. Actually, I don't think that actually affects exposure to heat, which is caused as the particles of the gundam rub against the particles of air, which would happen all over the gundam all at once...

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Tue May 09, 2006 9:58 am

But by having the feet and arms take the brunt of the exposure, the more critical points could survive.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby miyumi on Tue May 09, 2006 10:09 am

True, but if you're using your shield on top of that, then you'd want to lay flat to reduce your speed. Once your shield disintigrates, then move so its feet are down. The legs would be gone by the time you should deploy your parachutes, but maybe you'd survive.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Tue May 09, 2006 10:11 am

Hmm...didn't think of that...

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Tue May 09, 2006 11:07 am

The Alex is not Project G4, though it is sometimes referred to as such. it is project NT-1, because it was built for newtype pilots, specifically for Amuro, but it did not get delivered to the White Base because of the Cyclops Team's attack. G04 and G05 were both stationed on the Throughbred (a Pegasus class warship).

Lost War Chronicles, the manga, is based on a video game. Video Games are hardly ever counted as cannon, and most manga, unless otherwise noted by Bandai is not counted as cannon. Until it's counted in Bandai's official publications it's not considered cannon. Lost War Chronicles, I'm pretty sure is not, but I can and will do a bit of research just to be sure.

Based on technical diagrams of the RX-78-2, I'm fairly certain that the yellow "blocks" on the skirt of the armor could not be used as storage units for a parachute device. Even if said units were storage devices (which by all accounts they are not), I do not believe they would make effective parachute location points. In 08th MS Team we see the first on screen use of two different parachute like devices. The first is in the opening of said animation:

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As seen here (I appologize for the wording but couldn't get a better shot) the frist parachute system starts off as a large thruster back pack, then when the pilot reaches the required alltitude to deploy the parachute, it is deployed. The thruster system is obviously there in place to slow the decent further once it reaches the ground for a safe landing, and then discarded.

The second system appears in Episode 09:

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The parachute pack is obviously larger and operates a bit differently. Once the three parachutes are launched (they are also larger than those seen in the opening), there is a thruster pack that also rises with it, which once, again, at the proper alltitude, the pilot fires to safely land. Now from what I can gather from watching both animations, the difference in size and design could account for different altitude jumps. Note that they are still in the atmosphere and the ammount of thrust they need to land safely in the second one. Regular thrusters mounted on the RX-79[G] would be a little weaker than what would be mounted on the G-3, since one is a land combat mobile suit and the other was meant for both space and land combat. Also note how the cords are mounted on the shoulders of the RX-79[G].

Now on to the shield. As Miyumi has noted, laying down on some form of protective atmosphere re-entry device is how it is done. This is shown in Z Gundam. I will also show the ballute systems in these next screen shots. Unfortunatly, I can't make screen shots from my Z Gundam DVD's right now, but I'll do my best to illustrate. Instead of using a ballute system like the rest of the mobile suits re-entrying the atmosphere, Camille in his Gundam MK II, used the wave rider known as Flying Armor:

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This unit allowed for heat to be distrubuted around the mobile suit and protect it. As you can see there are places for it's shield (can be made out under the gundam itself) and it's hands. In that image it's probably trying to recreate the battle right above the atmosphere, but during the fall through the atmosphere, Camille kept his arms and legs in their propper holdings. Once through the atmosphere the Flying Armor can be used as a support unit to increase mobility and flight.

The ballute sytem on the other hands mount a large balloon like system on the back and larger thrusters on the mobile suit, as seen here on Quattro Bajina (aka Char Aznable)'s Hyaku Shiki:

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Now once the mobile suit gets past the point of no return, the ballute automatically deploys, turning the mobile suit on it's back. I suspect that the ballute's exterior for the balloon system is actually made of the same material as the atmospheric reentry film that the RX-78-2 used in the TV series, but there's no information really about what they are made of. Here's line art of the ballute deployed be the Argama. Same as a mobile suit would, but can't find a pic of it.

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All of them (except for the argama would would use it's own perpulsion once in the atmosphere) have extra thrusters to slow down their decent. Your G-3 did not. So when you land, you have your basic thrusters that were mounted on the machine when it first left Luna II. It couldn't have slowed the decent enough to even come close to safely land. I've already covered this in the other topic. The atmospheric re-entry systems of the RX-78-2 (and possible similar counterparts) were not meant to allow the entire suit to land safely. This isn't Getter Robo, where it can just leave from the moon and crash, landing on kneeling on one knee and the only thing different is that it's red paint job's been burnt to black. The Gundam, being a real robot and not a super robot, would have plummeted to the ground, and if they pilot did not escape using the core fighter, he, as well as most of the Gundam would be crushed. The whole 9 meters per second gravity thing comes into play.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby miyumi on Tue May 09, 2006 11:54 am

slight correction: acceleration due to gravit is 9.8 meters per second per second. Which means that each second another 9.8 meters per second is added to velocity.

So, if you start out at 3 meters per second, after one second it would be 12.8 meters per second, the next second velocity would be 22.6 meters per second, then 32.4 and so on. As you can see, it builds really quickly.

The basic equation for how fast you'd be going when you hit is the number of seconds you fell times 9.8, plus initial velocity (vi + sec*g). Of course, to find the number of seconds you would fall is a bit more complicated... which I don't have time to figure out right now.

I know this is what you meant Kiyoshi, this was for goth_3's benefit (I doubt he's gone over this in school quite yet). Just to correct your wording slightly, it's per second per second... one per second is simply velocity, not acceleration.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Tue May 09, 2006 12:34 pm

Yes, thanks was trying to type everything up quick and accidently left that out.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Tue May 09, 2006 12:58 pm

On a separate note: How would your team get information on the NT-1 to get said arms? By the time the Alex is built the war is near over anyway. Not only that, but from what I can gather from 0080, the NT-1 was a highly top secret Feddy project that very few knew about it. This isn't even bringing up the size issue of the matter, and how mobile suit from different models just can't be swapped over if they're not built on the same frame (an example of such will be mentioned later) Once the war was over, most, if not all, Federation projects concerning G3, NT-1, or any other salvagable Gundam unit are pretty much scrapped. The reason? Gundam type mobile weapons are expensive to build and maintain. The Federation, then and through out the rest of the Gundam saga, prefered to spend as little money as possible. Most Gundam weapons from that point onward we're built by outside companies (Anaheim Electronics, SNRI, etc.). This is why I have a complaint with the use of a Guntank and Guncannon.

Guntank (RX-75-4) and Guncannon (RX-77-2), which I assume you are using, saw limited production. They did go into mass production, but not on the level as the RGM-79 GM and many of it's variants. Why? Well Guntank proved ineffective in most combat situations, it was primarilly a long range unit, and mos mobile suit battles occurred in medium or close range. So, then we get to the Guncannon, which primarly role is a medium range mobile suit. However, if the Guncannon got into a close range battle, it also suffered due to it's heavier armor and lack of close range weaponry. The Federation responded by modified their RGM-79 to the RGC-80, or the GM Cannon. Cheaper to build, easier to maintain, and parts from the RGM-79 could easilly be shared. Cost is the primary reason we don't see the Federation using the Gundam (and it's later variants) as their primary model for their forces.

The Graystar couldn't exist because cannologically there are only nine Pegasus class warships, and not all of them existed at the same time. The Federation preferred to modify their already existing Salamis class ships to carry mobile suits, and they would use these well into the future (We see them all the way to V Gundam, which is so far the last chapters of UC Gundam, since G-Savior has been thrown out of continuety by Bandai).

The reason I am doing all of this is because you are presenting incorrect information about the established Gundam universe that many on here will not know are false, incorrect, or go beyond pure speculatory fact. And when I've been considering to ask Master awhile now if he'd let me run a UC Gundam RP (which I prefer much more than GW), I do not want anyone to think that what you are writing goes with how things actually occurred during the One Year War era of the UC Gundam universe.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Tue May 09, 2006 2:17 pm

I know what Ballute, and waverider systems look like and how they function.

The Guncannon and Guntank, there were only a couple onboard the Graystar, and, later, they are destroyed and replaced by GM Command types and Guncannon D types.

As for the Alex arms, I know Alex was developed at the very end of the war. But how much earlier do you think the Feddies would have had to begin development in order to create a Newtype MS. Don't try to use the fact that Alex really didn't use any Newtype systems, but was merely extraordinarily fast. I know. But with the right modification and jury-rigging, G-3 could support the Alex style arms.

I watched 08th Team, so I know how they used parachutes. My brother has the GM head toy that came withe the Parachute pack. As I mentioned earlier, I have the Lost War Chronicle, and in the first installment, the RX-79 uses a Parachute system.

No, Graystar is not cannonical. It is what is know as fanfic. Stories made up by fans. It is in no way meant to be taken completely to be a literal part of the series. It's just something to do in my spare time, with my overactive imqagination.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Tue May 09, 2006 2:58 pm

Still doesn't explain how you got through the atmosphere. If you're going to write a UC Gundam fanfic you should take in all of the technical information that is provided, in my opinion.

On the NT-1. My assumption would be the certain features of the design of the NT-1 was well into developement before all of Amuro's exploits came to fruitation. The most prominent element of this would be the 360 degree cockpit. Even though the 0080 stats have been acknowledged as being grossly over-exaggerated by Bandai, that's pretty much what we have to go by. So the way I see it, the NT-1 put everything that they had into one unit, for one of their best pilots (In terms of total units shot down Amuro is not the top).

I still don't see how weapon systems from a completly secret Feddy project could make it's way to some team, obviously working as yet another autonomous unit (atleast thats what I assume). Sure the Zeon did find out about the NT-1, but that doesn't mean the rest of the Federation knew about it. Furthermore, the NT-1 was never meant for mass productoin, so it wouldn't be like there were a couple of arms lying around and the Feddies would go "Hey, we got these arms left over after building that kick ass Gundam for some supposedly newtype pilot, let's send this to those guys with the G3!". If there were any spare arms, they would have clung onto them. Again, this happened at the end of the war, which means there's hardly any time for the NT-1 to be destroyed, and then the arms salvaged (even then they're badly damaged by Bernie in his MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai).

You can write whatever you want, I'll probably only read it to point out the technological inaccuracies, since you've already got many. If your supposed story did not have anything to do with the RP, things might be different, but you posted something claiming a process of entering the atmosphere that is impossible within the universe that this RP is based on. In earlier posts from oh I guess October or November, the Defenders and three members of the L3 Defense Force have to travel through the atmosphere. The Defenders, using a Gundam type mobile suit (since it is based in the GW universe it is using Gundanium) had to use a ballute like system. Now granted, that occurred in a totally different universe from what your story is based on. However, using examples from the universe that your supposed flash back occurred, I proved that it could not happen in the way that you described. You have not shown any other evidence otherwise to go against the case I have presented.

Being as that is, I ask for a move to either a) change the circumstances for how you managed to survive reentry and land or b) remove it all together, because it affects the continuity of this RP.

Edit: Also the production lines of the GM Command and Guncannon Mass Productoin type are both small, but it is possible for a team to be using those units. However, I do hope you don't have them going from Earth combat to space, cause the GM Command, unless it's space type, will not survive long, since it's meant more for Earth and Colony interior sorties.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Goth-3 Gundam on Wed May 10, 2006 9:33 am

Mmkay. I guess to somewhat justify my point I'll have to give you an overview of what I will eventually write.

The Graystar is called upon to participate in Odessa Day. En route, they encounter a Zeon recon force. During the ensuing battle, the Guntanks and -cannons are severely damaged. During re-entry G-3 is damaged. The G-3 and Graystar land in central Africa. In light of their damaged MS, the Graystar is ordered to proceed directly to Jaburo Base in South America. At Jaburo, the Guntanks and -cannons are deemed total losses. The Gundam undergoes a few repairs, but when it is determined that Jaburo does not have sufficient parts to replace/repair the ones damaged upon re-entry, the Graystar is dispatched to...

Okay. Lack of knowledge of 0080. Was Alex developed at Side 6, or just tested there?

The Graystar goes to wherever the Alex is being developed. There, they receive three GM Command space types, and two Guncannon D types...

As for the rest, I'll write that eventually.

I was reviewing one of your earlier posts. You brought up that the cooling film/gel was abandoned by Zeta Gundam. What relevance does that have to this conversation?

I stated earlier that I would modify my post. I just fixed it. Just for your pleasure.

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Tips: 0.00 INK Postby FutureKiyoshi on Wed May 10, 2006 10:50 am

First off, there were no Gundam units in Operation Odessa. Furthermore, I doubt the G3 would have been able to leave it's precious testing facility on Luna II to participate in Operation Odessa. Plus, technically the magnetic coating shouldn't even exist at that point. A little note on mobile suit model number designations: RX-78-3 means Federation Experiment UC year 0078 third model. Mobile suit number differences (as in RX-78-2 and RX-78-3 for example) are not used unless there are differences. The main difference for the G3 is the development of the magnetic coating, which has been noted on several occassions. With out this, well, it's still just the cobbled together -2's.

The NT-1 has no specific place of origin for it's development. It is shown in the first episode that parts of the Alex were being either developed or manufactured in the Feddy base in the Artic circle, but while the Cyclops Team from Zeon tries to attack, destroy/capture, it it takes off for Side 6.

Now then, you've seen 0080 obviously. So, you know that Side 6 (and specifically the Libot colony) were neutral, and after the attacks by both Feddy and Zeek forces, they weren't too happy about the destruction that had gone on in their colony. The animation clearly shows that Libot is not a heavilly fortified location (with the good reason of the Feddy's not even supposed to be there), so I doubt they'd have a couple of GM Command Space types. Furthermore, the Guncannon Mass Production types were stationed on the Gray Phantom, there were only two, and they were destroyed, along with most of the Gray Phantom's mobile suit forces (Which is quite suprising considering they had GM Sniper II's, one of the best GM variants from this era, and reserved to only ace pilots). It's not like Side 6 is Feddy controlled and has a bunch of bases with surplus mobile suits. Especially something on the level of a GM Command (space or otherwise) or any other high-class GM variant, or the Guncannon MP type.

I bring up the fact that the re-entry film/cooling vent system was abandoned for a good reason. If that system was effective, why did it not continue several years down the road? Simple: It wasn't. As I've stated over and over, that method was not meant to allow the mobile suit to land safely. It was only meant to protect the pilot. While the systems that were introduced in Z Gundam, were ones to not only protect the pilot, but also allow the mobile suit to continue operations after re-entry.

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