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On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

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On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 2.50 INK Postby Connected on Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:26 pm

As someone new who, after being persistent in the face of a play whose creator jumped ship after two posts, found solace in a writing-passionate and warm group RP on the second try: the issue is not solved by trying to focus on the new player experience. At the risk of being annoying, I'll repeat that, because it's important.

We don't solve this by focusing on new players.

We solve this by rewarding and encouraging players and creators who are making successful non-MU group plays. It may seem counter-intuitive, but by not focusing on new players and instead refining the play experience for core members, we may gain new members more slowly, but the ones we gain will be more patient and enticed by the passion of those who stick around. I know because I'm now one of them.

A happy core will grow itself. An unhappy core is unsustainable, and will turn away new players. Make creators feel good about what they're doing, and they'll keep doing it. Along those lines, I'd like to give a shout-out to The_Queen for being one of the most prolific, patient, and friendly writers I've yet come to know on this site.

I'm sorry for making a topic so similar to another held more recently, but I felt it was important to share a take on the issue from the perspective of a new player. Thank you for reading.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Sepokku on Sat Mar 20, 2021 4:42 pm

I daresay this belongs in RPG Design, This is a thread for debating things unrelated to RPG design.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Connected on Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:01 pm

Will move - thank you!

EDIT: Just as soon as I figure out how.
Last edited by Connected on Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Absenthia on Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:33 pm

Connected wrote:Will move - thank you!

EDIT: Just as soon as I figure out how.


I'll ask one of the mods if they can move it. :)
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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.50 INK Postby partially-stars on Sat Mar 20, 2021 5:46 pm

I've moved this to the RPG Game Design forum. I'm very curious to find out if you have any ideas as to how people think we could be supporting our existing members. It's something I'm constantly striving to do and figure out the best ways to encourage and nuture growing non-multiverse universes, and I think you've raised points. So tell us: what exactly do you think would help?
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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.50 INK Postby Connected on Sun Mar 21, 2021 4:29 am

I believe there may be some quality of life features that would bolster support for growing plays. I only personally have thoughts on one or two, since I haven't been here long enough to know what creators struggle with in particular, but they may make some difference.

Character Count

Let's take a growing play from the Universes tab for example. Here's a screenshot of the RP's information panel as seen from that page:

Image

This suggests, to me, that there are seven players with characters created for this RP. But the story goes a bit deeper than that. It seems common for players or the RP's creator to make more than one character for themselves to fill out the roster - some of these may indeed be non-player characters, but they still count towards the player character count shown on the RP's information panel. Yes, the play is currently accepting applications, but someone who's casually glancing at the list of available plays to participate in might write the play off as relatively full.

Image

Looking at the Characters tab does not give much reassurance. We do still see seven characters and presume seven players. But just how many players are represented by this count? After some digging, this is what we find:

Character 1 is a GM-controlled narrator.
Character 2 is controlled by Player 1.
Character 3 is controlled by Player 2.
Character 4 is also controlled by Player 2.
Character 5 is controlled by Player 3.
Character 6 is a GM-controlled character, or NPC.
Character 7 is controlled by Player 4.

This means that the actual player count is closer to 4, but you wouldn't be able to tell that from any of the pages or tabs for the play. But a play accepting applications with only 4 current players is a dream come true for someone who's looking to join a new play. So it may help entice new applicants if the information panel looked a bit more like:

Image

Now that looks inviting! Little things like this can make growing plays draw in more attention and lessen the burden of RP creators to find more players.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby partially-stars on Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:03 am

Connected, that's a really fantastic idea and I think you should post that into Suggestions and Requests as I think a lot of people would find that really useful!

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Connected on Sun Mar 21, 2021 6:17 am

Sounds good - I've posted it there for review.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.25 INK Postby Sepokku on Sun Mar 21, 2021 8:35 pm

Speaking on Connected's example. I am actually Player 2! Our actual player count is: Myself, Jakuri, Wake, Skyz, and Oborosen. Our GM is Wake, but due to the completely collaborative nature of the RP, he finds himself as much a player at a loss for what to do as anyone. So our overall player count is indeed about 4. Connected makes a good point as far as the quality of life goes for the site. I have personally been flummoxed by having to check player count manually.

Unrelated self-promotion. We are still looking for 1 or 2 players for our RP ^^

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby mombie on Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:34 pm

I still think that new players should be encouraged to join active RPs for a certain number of posts before creating a new Universe. One of the staff said that might affect RPG activity, but let's be honest - new players vanishing into thin air has negatively impacted what little community RPG still has. That used to be the rule when I first joined, and I had to get into another RP. I was fine with that because I had intended to be a serious member.

A new player should have to join a pre-existing Universe, whether that be the MV or non-MV Universe. There are so many non-MV Universes that seem dead because of players abandoning them, but a quick PM to a GM could renew interest.

However, I also DO NOT agree with the above. Having a player count may help some people. I personally don't care about how many players are in an RP, so long as it is active. In one of the active Universes, I control up to five playable characters. Some of us are alt-a-holics like that. It doesn't have any effect on me. It could also be counter-intuitive, a smaller player base may evoke a sense of cliquiness to new RPers. They may hesitate to contact a GM or join a Universe that has a few players because it could seem 'closed'. Whereas, if they see a higher character count, they may be more inclined to see if they can wiggle in. It's just more clutter in Universes, and I don't really want that in mine. It's not hard to ask if an RP is still accepting. What's the difference between 10 players controlling ten characters and two players controlling ten characters? Nothing. They could both be accepting new characters. They can both be inactive or slow in their own right.

EITHER OR, I don't really care. As I said, I don't really understand how that has any effect on members and Universes. I don't see it, but if it affects someone, then it is a valid point.

Anything we do is going to have its pros and cons, but I do agree that the focus on new writers is moot at this point. Especially when the small active player base RPG does have is extremely disgruntled with everything as it stands. It's only the unique design that brings our roleplays to life that keeps us here, not all this extra stuff.

This extra stuff like a new chat service when Discord was fine. This weird Ink thing (I don't think it should cost INK to make a Universe private. Sounds more like punishing people to me, honestly). There is too much noise. There's a certain member of staff that has just a little over 40K words to his name, and it's weird since he's been here for 16 years. Strange really, to not be involved in your own community at all. Especially when asking other members to be active and engage.

Also, I know I am not the only GM that wants this, but we should be able to remove inactive CS from our Universes. It doesn't have to delete the character entirely, but we should be able to clean up our own Universes. There is always a thing about the rights of players, but what about the rights of GMs over their own creations? We took hours to build, why can't we purge members that are no longer going to be posting? It's such bullcrap.
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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.25 INK Postby Sepokku on Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:04 am

mombie wrote:I still think that new players should be encouraged to join active RPs for a certain number of posts before creating a new Universe. One of the staff said that might affect RPG activity, but let's be honest - new players vanishing into thin air has negatively impacted what little community RPG still has. That used to be the rule when I first joined, and I had to get into another RP. I was fine with that because I had intended to be a serious member.


Completely agree. Too many people appear, make a universe, then disappear within the hour.

mombie wrote:However, I also DO NOT agree with the above. Having a player count may help some people. I personally don't care about how many players are in an RP, so long as it is active.


It has been an issue for both Connected and I, and hinders no one so it is definitely a quality of life improvement.

mombie wrote:This weird Ink thing (I don't think it should cost INK to make a Universe private. Sounds more like punishing people to me, honestly). There is too much noise.


I don't actually know anything about the INK, so if someone knows more please correct me, but I think there is a long-term goal for the INK. I believe the plan is to convert parts of the site that wish it to a playable text-based RPG. The INK would then serve as currency in Universe similar to the credits in Ready Player One. The issue with any currency is circulation. Naturally the site should prompt circulation, and honestly making a Universe that no one else can read/join/enjoy should be a privilege you have to pay for with site-based currency that we are given tons of anyways.

mombie wrote:Also, I know I am not the only GM that wants this, but we should be able to remove inactive CS from our Universes. It doesn't have to delete the character entirely, but we should be able to clean up our own Universes. There is always a thing about the rights of players, but what about the rights of GMs over their own creations? We took hours to build, why can't we purge members that are no longer going to be posting? It's such bullcrap.


Also completely agreed. Especially with how many spambots we get.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby mombie on Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:26 am

Sepokku wrote:
mombie wrote:However, I also DO NOT agree with the above. Having a player count may help some people. I personally don't care about how many players are in an RP, so long as it is active.



It has been an issue for both Connected and I, and hinders no one so it is definitely a quality of life improvement.


My issue is that it is just additional clutter. Then again, there is so much clutter on this site that I guess more isn't really going to do much. I think people are just either too lazy or too scared to ask a GM about a Universe. Who cares how many characters are NPCs? Who cares about how many players are really part of roleplay, so long as it is active and accepting?

Additionally, let's say there are two Universes. Universe A has 12 players and 12 characters. It looks great just by numbers alone. Universe B has 3 players but 12 characters. Both of these Universes are accepting CS, but a newbie thinks, "Well, Universe A has more people. It must be more active." Whereas a newbie might look at Universe B and think that it must be something private or something of a clique. Even if it's not true. Now, Universe A looks active, but it's actually slow and trodding along. Universe B is actually active, but people don't want to join because it 'looks like a clique or a private RP.

This can actually alienate Universes with a smaller player base and make largely inactive Universes with more players look appealing when they are anything but.

It's really not that hard to ask to join a Universe. Most Non-MV Universes have all the characters/players on the front page. If you can't take the time to read or look over the details, then maybe that Universe just isn't for you. That's just my thought on that matter. I know that other GMs do not see why the feature would be needed and also see it is more unnecessary noise. I just don't understand why we have to cater to people that don't take the time to ask questions or read details. It's kind of annoying, to be honest. ESPECIALLY when most GMs go out of the way to MAKE SURE everyone that is looking at their Universe knows WHAT PLAYER HAS WHAT CHARACTER! 90% of the time, the front page will tell you how many players are there. We work really hard to code for things like that.

There may honestly need to be a vote on this issue because, so far, it affects only you two. However, a lot of RPers that I have spoken to about the issue see it as clutter. Clutter is a VERY BIG PROBLEM on RPG.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby mombie on Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:33 am

Sepokku wrote:Naturally the site should prompt circulation, and honestly making a Universe that no one else can read/join/enjoy should be a privilege you have to pay for with site-based currency that we are given tons of anyways.


Why? What is the logical reason why one person should have to pay INK to do this when anyone can create a Universe? What makes other Universes so special that Private ones need to be marginalized with this passive-aggressive implementation of INK? If RPG would listen to members for once, maybe there wouldn't be so many private RPs popping up.

Does it cost the site anything to create a private Universe as opposed to a non-Private Universe? If not, then the INK implementation is unjust and just another slap in the face to members that have different wants and needs from this Site. It's unfriendly.

I get that you don't understand and that you maybe don't want to since you are also against these types of RPs, but that doesn't mean it is a just implementation of a bullshit nonsense currency anyway.

We should be able to RP however we want to without having to be treated differently from other RPers.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 2.75 INK Postby Sepokku on Mon Mar 22, 2021 1:31 am

mombie wrote:Why? What is the logical reason why one person should have to pay INK to do this when anyone can create a Universe?...

Does it cost the site anything to create a private Universe as opposed to a non-Private Universe? If not, then the INK implementation is unjust


Because the Gateway is for collaboration and has to pay to host/store everyone's stories. However, by making them private, they are making them unreadable/unjoinable/unable to be enjoyed by everyone else on the site. So like you said, it is just.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby mombie on Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:14 am

Sepokku wrote:
mombie wrote:Why? What is the logical reason why one person should have to pay INK to do this when anyone can create a Universe?.


Because the Gateway is for collaboration and has to pay to host all of your stories. However, by making them private, they are making them unreadable/unjoinable/unable to be enjoyed by everyone else on the site.


There is collaboration. Other Universes close and have a player/character cap. With that logic all Non-MV player Applications Necessary for GM Approval should be charged too. Since not everyone can join.

No one wanted their private Universes to be unreadable. That was forced by Rem. We just wanted the ability to close off CS because of spam CS.

And please, like you read all the rps anyway. You also dip on roleplays without word, too. So, what's your problem?

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong and subject to extra rules.

You're kinda nasty with a really bad bias. Honestly, you're not worth arguing with. Rem has to pay for everyone's stories. If he doesn't want private RPs, he can ban them. All universes should be treated the same regardless of how you feel about them.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.50 INK Postby Sepokku on Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:22 am

mombie wrote:There is collaboration. Other Universes close and have a player/character cap. With that logic all Non-MV player Applications Necessary for GM Approval should be charged too. Since not everyone can join.

No one wanted their private Universes to be unreadable. That was forced by Rem. We just wanted the ability to close off CS because of spam CS.

And please, like you read all the rps anyway. You also dip on roleplays without word, too. So, what's your problem?

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong and subject to extra rules.

You're kinda nasty with a really bad bias. Honestly, you're not worth arguing with. Rem has to pay for everyone's stories. If he doesn't want private RPs, he can ban them. All universes should be treated the same regardless of how you feel about them.

You're absolutely right! Some people will ask questions then get upset at you for answering. Such people really shouldn't be engaged because there is no way to have a constructive conversation with them. Unfortunately, the thread has derailed a bit, but Mombie did bring up some good points in her initial post!

edit: I did indeed drop out of the Hogwarts RP, but only because it started so long after I originally joined, and was a remake. I simply didn't have time to join the remake.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby mombie on Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:40 am

Sepokku wrote:
mombie wrote:There is collaboration. Other Universes close and have a player/character cap. With that logic all Non-MV player Applications Necessary for GM Approval should be charged too. Since not everyone can join.

No one wanted their private Universes to be unreadable. That was forced by Rem. We just wanted the ability to close off CS because of spam CS.

And please, like you read all the rps anyway. You also dip on roleplays without word, too. So, what's your problem?

Just because you don't like something doesn't make it wrong and subject to extra rules.

You're kinda nasty with a really bad bias. Honestly, you're not worth arguing with. Rem has to pay for everyone's stories. If he doesn't want private RPs, he can ban them. All universes should be treated the same regardless of how you feel about them.

You're absolutely right! Some people will ask questions then get upset at you for answering. Such people really shouldn't be engaged because there is no way to have a constructive conversation with them. Unfortunately, the thread has derailed a bit, but Mombie did bring up some good points in her initial post!

edit: I did indeed drop out of the Hogwarts RP, but only because it started so long after I originally joined, and was a remake. I simply didn't have time to join the remake.


Yes, your clear bias is upsetting because we are getting shit on by staff, and now by regular members.

It's all collaborative. All of it. If you read other suggestions, you would see multiple GMs of small group/private universes asking why Rem forced their Universes into hiding and being unreadable when all that was desired was the ability to close CS because of Spam and members that can't read beyond the title.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Sepokku on Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:03 am

mombie wrote:Yes, your clear bias is upsetting because we are getting shit on by staff, and now by regular members.

It's all collaborative. All of it. If you read other suggestions, you would see multiple GMs of small group/private universes asking why Rem forced their Universes into hiding and being unreadable when all that was desired was the ability to close CS because of Spam and members that can't read beyond the title.


Once more, I'm sorry if I came off as rude, but I am merely trying to offer insight as to why things are happening. Maintaining this site (that otherwise is completely ad-free and probably a money drain) can't be easy, and we certainly don't make it any easier by attacking the staff who basically keep the site up for our sake.

Also, I am agreeing with certain points you make because I find them empirically correct, which is also part of my bias. I am not claiming to be absolutely correct. Thats why these forums are made, so we can talk through issues ^^

edit: And I certainly don't read ALL the RPs, but I do read quite a bit of them! It's not terribly fair to assume otherwise, especially since Ive been on this site for almost a decade and obnoxiously show no signs of leaving despite my periods of inactivity. Part of the reason I enjoy RPing with some of ya'll is because I read your stories and enjoy them... Hence why Mombie was one of like three people I Dm'd for characterization.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 1.00 INK Postby mombie on Mon Mar 22, 2021 12:18 pm

Yet, you can't bother to check suggestions or read through anything else to see that Rem forced private Universes into hiding when that was not desired by GMs. How can you claim that they are a privilage to be treated differently from others when you don't even know the full story?

What kills me about this whole thing is that you are one of the older members that have abandoned RPs after one or two posts, and now you're bitter about private RPs and 1x1.

I dont derive pleasure from attacking people, but before you attack certain Universes - it's best to make sure you have all the info first. You don't. Instead you constantly choose to hop onboard the staff train and find ways to put certain groups of people down.

1x1s, small groups...whatever.. they are all collaborative. There is NO difference between them and a Universe that closes of CS after a certain number of roles. Zero. The only difference is that Rem hides them for some reason, and that was not what we wanted. So, if you want to blame someone for making them unreadable, that was Rem. I don't think any of us realized we got completely hidden until now.

We just wanted to close off CS because people would just submit a character without reading or spam CS. It scewed the character count. I don't recall asking to be completely hidden way like some unwanted stepchild shoved into a basement.

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Re: On the Matter of New Players and Orphaned Plays

Tips: 0.25 INK Postby mjolnir on Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:38 pm

mombie wrote:Also, I know I am not the only GM that wants this, but we should be able to remove inactive CS from our Universes. It doesn't have to delete the character entirely, but we should be able to clean up our own Universes. There is always a thing about the rights of players, but what about the rights of GMs over their own creations? We took hours to build, why can't we purge members that are no longer going to be posting? It's such bullcrap.


I just thought I'd pop in for this bit here. There is a way to remove CSs from an RP if they're MIA, ghosted or whatever else. It'll still show up in tags or whatever if I remember correctly. But it'll remove them from the actual character tab on the RPs. This will not delete the writer's CS. They can still view it, edit it or whatever. It just removes it from the CS... Unless this function was removed or is null. (I can test it later with one of your characters in my RP to see if it works)

Anyway...

You have to go to the roleplay management page. Which, there is no direct link to this anymore (which I asked for it to be brought back on the suggestions forum because it's super useful). How I get to this page is I got to my private messages then I click the tab roleplays which will be in the navigation bar that says "Overview, profile, board preferences, private messages, characters, roleplays, manage groups"

So you go to the roleplays tab. It'll open up a page that looks something like this...

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If you scroll down you'll get a list of all the RPs you've ever joined and/or created. If it's one you joined it'll basically just have links to those RPs, settings, characters, etc. with an option to abandon. But if it's one you've created it'll list every character in that RP with options next to those characters' names to Approve or Remove those characters that looks like this...

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This is how I go about removing characters from RPs that should no longer be there either by my own mistake by mistyping a name or something. Or the writer is no longer active in said RP.

Idk if this helps you at all but yeah. It's not the most straight forward thing to get to. Which is one of the many reasons why I wish we had a navigation direct link to the Roleplay Management page. Because this is how I keep up with RPs and see when there is a new post.

Hope that helps :)

Edit : I just tested this and it still works.
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