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The Trantor Fleet Engagement (CK Incursion, Battle #1)

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jii on Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:52 pm

I think I may have worded that wrong, but basically what Power Gaming entails as far as that goes, is that your character needs to be capable of dying in a conventional manner. This doesn't mean EVERYONE has to use a biological creature of some kind (Human, Demon, Dragon, Elf, etc.). Even Cell from DBZ wouldn't be considered a Power Gamer in the regards to his regeneration process because IF you DO vaporize him completely then yeah, he will be dead (Though him regenerating as fast as he does after being reduced to basically nothing is rather...ridiculous).

However, in this case, you can't vaporize the character because even a direct hit would just be absorbed. Technically, this power could be used to survive any kind of attack, except for an Ethereal Implosion which is prolly the most powerful thing I can think of without the realm of what would be considered legal in an RP.

Anyways.

Here's a lowdown of the things which have currently "been used" by the 9th Fleet in my post:

1: "Creation Cannon"- A Warship Grade Weapon which utilizies Dimensional Technology. A machine called a Creation Engine is used to create an Artificial Dimension, which at the point of conception produces a Big Bang effect. The raw force is then siphoned off into a TS-Field (Time-Space) which allows for the unstable energy to be handled with for application. The power channeled from this alternate dimension is then unleashed into a single destructive blast which is maintained via the TS-System.

2: "TS-Shield"- Similar to the TS-Field, the system has been incorporated as an actual defensive measure against incoming energy weapons used by enemy warships or crafts. Stemming from the same Dimensional Technology, the TS-Shield responds to incoming energies by redirecting the power into another universe. While this is an effective countermeasure for energy based attacks, the system is not capable of countering physical attacks.

3: "FDS Field (Full-Defense Shield)"- A defensive barrier which incorporates two technologies in one, the AK-Field (Anti-Kinetic) and N-Field (Neutralization). The AK-Field produces a protective shield composed of the Force Element which serves to disperse the kinetic energy of an incoming attack. A bullet traveling through the air has a set amount of momentum to it which enables it to pierce the target. However, before reaching the target, it would come into contact with the AK-Field first, impacting with it which would take the brunt of the attack power. Then, instead of the bullet passing through the target, it would simply bounce off of them, feeling like little more than a peck on the surface of their skin.

The N-Field is an Anti-Psionic Defensive System which disrupts the Ethereal Particles throughout a set radius to prevent Ethereal Reactions, as they are de-stabilized due to a massive flood of information being sent out into the Wave. As a result, Magical Spells cease to work, as do most Spiritual Powers which operate on a physical level of existence due to the basic material used being tampered with.

4: "S-Zone Generator"- Short for "Seal Zone", its a device which incorporates Dimensional Technology to alter an area's "coding" to safe-guard it from external Dimension Technologies. While the S-Zone is in place, its impossible for Transfer Systems or other such things from operating within the covered location, preventing people or objects from warping in or out. It also prevents anything else from manipulating the dimension within this zone as a result, keeping it simply as "normal space" for the entire duration of its activation.

These are the basic explanations for such things.

I can't believe what i'm seeing here, it's okay that Jii's fleet can automatically detect the sort of weapons that I have armed and defend a blast that was increased through a time flux to be much faster than the speed of light, knowing exactly what the blast was and having EXACT measures to counter it.


Actually, you're wrong there. The 9th Fleet had no idea what kinds of weapons you had nor your defenses. The Creation Cannons were used simply because I, myself, had no idea what it was you were actually firing at us, and I wanted to be sure that what I did counter it with would actually "work". So, pretty much, rather than take our chances and risk possible damage/casualties, decided to go with an extreme and fire off the "big guns", which in my mind I saw firing before you fired your weapon. And your exact location in relation to our fleet was never determined, from what I could deduce from the posts made. We saw you make mention of a moon, but I never made mention of any moon. So the distance between your ship and the 9th Fleet is an "unknown", and so I played it as you being at quite a far off distance from us.

But once someone stops his creation cannon (which baffles me on how a ship would throw that much power out without completely annihilating itself from the recoil, or from the pure destructive force) it's immediately considered modding, powergaming and it can't happen.

That is absolutely unacceptable.


You know, as much as I would love to hear you and others ramble on about what you think is "fair" or "not fair", you clearly did not read my previous post very well. The Trantor Alliance, from what they've told me over IM in private, can and will stop a Creation Cannon blast. And the manner in which they do it IS legal. However, what Oni did is NOT, and the difference has been clearly pointed out.

How would you be able to automatically have the perfect defenses set up for something that you don't even know about? How would you know to set up an anti-kinetic energy field? There is metagaming written all over this post.


I don't recall ever PMing you or anyone else for what the Xelas had or what an Agron-Infected Ki blast was. How do you figure I could have Meta Gamed if I didn't have the OOC information to Meta-Game with? I think your paranoia has started to show in your false accusations. Trying to slander me isn't going to change the facts here.

The 9th Fleet activated its defenses. The AK-Field just happens to be one of them, as is explained above. As has been explained already a number of times, the Crimson Knights are geared towards Inter-Dimensional Warfare. Our weapons, ships, mecha, etc. are all designed with this thought in mind, and most of us have been in prior large-scale wars, larger than this one, where such things were common place. It shouldn't come as any surprise that we would be prepared for such things. And for the record, you aren't the only ones on the battlefield. We were dealing with the Trantor Alliance far before you showed up, and they have already demonstrated technologies which would require the attention of one our Inter-Dimensional Assault Fleets (The 9th and 8th Fleet).

The Xelas has involved itself in a battle between two Technology Titans (Three, actually. Including Rize's Ship which, in itself, looks to be a match for a Fleet in its own right). If you knew you couldn't handle it, then why the hell did you bother to interfere in the first place? Were you just THAT eager to try and show off or what?

How is your ship able to sustain such heavy recoil that is comparable to a universal big bang?


There is no recoil, that's why.

Agron has been explained in a great amount of detail, stop picking apart intricacies when things such as the prophets "angel powered technology" are just as mysterious, accept that it has been countered and move on so we may continue this war.


*Sticks a plunger on his face* That's ridiculous. You know, people who say "just let it slide so we can continue", I don't understand at all. And frankly, when they do say that, it really pisses me off. Assume for a moment, I do decided to just play ignorant, allow it to go without payiny any mind to it. Let's say, someone else attacks him. He absorbs that as well. Someone else does something to him, yep, easily countered. We go to the ground battle now, people start fighting him there, more issues come up, but hell, Mr. Slayer here in his vast infinite knowledge figures its a GOOD IDEA to just continue to let this bullshit slide JUST so everyone can keep playing.

Here's an idea. Maybe he SHOULDN'T have tried to use Agron in the first place. Maybe he SHOULD have given more thought to his character's limits so that he didn't come off as a blatant God. Maybe you SHOULDN'T have gotten involved in a space battle where you are seriously out-classed in the first place and have even admitted to such. MAYBE, people should stop trying to pick fights with our space forces so that we can get this damn battle situated on the ground FINALLY which we've been TRYING to do for the past two weeks. You're expecting me to feel sorry for you, but I'm not, seriously. You have issues with the power of our fleet. We aren't FORCING you to fight the fleet, YOU keep coming to fight US. And the 9th Fleet is present because of the Trantor Alliance, which is not apart of the WINGED Organization. So once again, I find myself asking the question, what the bloody hell ARE you trying to prove by attacking our space Fleet?

All your so called "points" shatter because of this fact. YOU are the ones attacking the fleet. If you DON'T want to mess with the fleet, DON'T attack it. Its THAT simple.

Eh, if they want to go that route, I would do the same thing I did earlier. My Trantor deal in weapons big and small, so the Creation Weapons, would be stopped by the(Thanks to Starfleet) common Trans Warp Effect of our Shields. They simply are like a massive trapdoor effect. Just like how your stone produces waves in a pond, The shields act as a sort of opposite field. by simply scanning the pattern, the shields go and produce two wave fronts, one in the in the same phase, and the other producing a 180 degree opposite phase reaction. In basic Wave physics, two waves with degrees 180 degrees out f phase cancel, so your massive superweapon, due to its common wave height and wavelength is simply countered by the basic laws of wave physics. The Anti KE Field is a nice strength, although I prefer to use armor for Anti KE, and Shelds for anti energy, but that's my belief. Also, on drones, and jamming. when you set up the massive jamming field, how did you plan to communicate with your troops? Were you using short range lasers, like in First Gundam /UC? Fleet tactics without long range coms fall apart quite easily, although the way you set up your jammer, was a bit too effective, you fell for the law of cloaking. "If nothing is where something should be, it is a problem".

For Wing, I'm going to finish a basic garrison OOB (Order of battle) for my Ground Terra Forces, and post it. If you could all post some sort of basic OOB (Like the list of unit types, number of troops, basic factiods) that would be grand.


Huh?

I'd really rather have Jii just fight his way out of the Dark Realm, instead of having to explain all this technical shit which would've been a Hell of a lot easier. Considering there are ways to escape it, as well as to combat it, and considering a lot of what I said was misinterpreted again, I'd rather go with the easy thing and simply do what Master said.


That's all well and good, until you decide that you wanna try to trap us inside the Dark Realm again, or absorb anymore of our attacks. THAT is the real issue. The lack of "restraints" for your character being able to just do all of this as he pleases.

Go with the flow. Simple enough, I'm not complaining or asking for an explanation every time I see something I think is unbelievably powerful, I find a way to combat it, and simply move on.


You mean, ignore what you've done. How your character, BY HIMSELF, rendered two shots from a Creation Cannon useless, and not only that, but also absorbed and used them? Dude, really? You honestly expect me to just let that slide and allow Agron to continue being a presence in this war? I said I would deal with what you've done, but I'm not going to allow that kind of crap to continue afterwards. That's your "freebie". I'll chalk it up to a last ditch effort on your part to survive the attack and defend the Xelas, but I suggest pulling out of the battle and stop trying to mess with the 9th Fleet. Let us finish our business with the Trantor Alliance so we can finally focus more on the ground battles, which is what everyone was actually looking more forward to than all this space crusading.

As for removing my Agron character from the RP, it's not something I'm willing to do, however I will cut down on what the absorption of energy, IF and only IF the massive attacks coming from the starships get cut down as well. My original plan never involved getting into a battle of quantum physics to begin with, however I was forced to step it up when universally powerful attacks were being sent my way.

I'd rather just use his basic abilities, which was what I demonstrated earlier on before this particular conflict which I thought was fairly reasonable to the other side. The same with Alucroas.


The massive attacks coming from the starships will flat-out STOP if people stop trying to pick a fight with them. They're only there to secure the perimeter around New Terra to prevent our ground forces from being attacked from orbit, as was pointed out in my post. The ONLY reason we have our space forces mobilized in the first place is because the Trantor guys showed up with their assault force of warships at the very start of this, and now they've brought in more after having told us that they were going to just surrender and back-out. So if you really wanna blame someone for there being "big guns" involved in this? *Points at the Trantor people*

YOU, however, along with Slayer and his Xelas, AREN'T helping matters in the least. And quite frankly, you shouldn't be making characters with those kinds of abilities anyway and then using them in things like this. Doing that in order to "compensate" for your lack of firepower and technology is wrong.

If you wanna lay my concerns to rest, I suggest you start trying to prove to me just why Agron should be allowed to remain. What makes him not a God and how the fuck do you kill something that can absorb a Creation Cannon blast? Let's hear this explanation, because as it stands, I fail to see how you're somehow different than the Prophet, and it was removed for exactly the same reasons. And yeah, I'M the one who had Forby remove it. It wasn't anyone else. So let's hear how you are any different.

The 9th Fleet is going to stay in space, as was intended. Its only meant to shield the ground forces from an orbital attack, and to remove all hostile presence from the region of space around New Terra which may prove as a threat. Agron, however, is likely going to be sticking around to fight, so if you intend on doing this, I'm going to need to know how you differ from the Prophet with your seemingly impossible to defeat character (Yeah, from my perspective, not really seeing much in a way to kill Agron, not unless you "choose" to let someone beat him, and that's utter nonsense).
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby King. on Sat Apr 05, 2008 12:33 am

Argon stays in Prophet stays in. And if the Prophet stays in I'm pulling everything she (speaking about the Prophet here) has out. Which, I know for a damn fact, that Argon or the Trantor fleet will NOT survive. If you want to try your luck, go ahead. But I'm not bluffing on this shit.

So this is my last stand for Argon to be removed. I'm more then willing to have Gaël be vanquished and Prophet killed. It would only be temporary anyways.

Admin Edit: Cool your jets. Some people prefer a space fight, some a ground fight, and as you can see, people are working toward a ground-based conflict.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alucroas on Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:19 am

The very fact that you're not taking into account, that preparing a heavily loaded defense can stop a heavily loaded offense by cancelling each other out has never really appealed to you from what I'm gathering here.

Believe it or not, Agron CAN be beaten, and how he gets beaten is extremely simple once figured out, and while it may not actually be beating in the way you THINK he should be beaten, as long as he's out of your hair then the problem should be solved. Agron does have limits.

Agron can't breathe or show any signs of a struggle when coming into contact with a blast like that, because his body doesn't allow him to. Instead he literally got dragged for the ride with the blast by infecting himself with it, which was part of the plan. This was carefully set up, and Agron didn't do this all by HIMSELF, I had him work in conjunction with my Alucroas character very subtly for multiple turns.

I'll point these facts out later, when I come home today, seeing as I have a staff meeting at my job.
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby LordSaladin on Sat Apr 05, 2008 7:46 am

So, SugarCube, are you going to make the ground based thread as requested? I can do it if you so wish, but I will be honest and say I am unsure if there were posts before Zephyr had the city surrounded and Zerel replied when bringing through the Kelantan army.

The main reason for this is that I don't really have any interest at the moment in the space battle, mainly because that isn't my bag. I, and my characters, are much more suited for in-atmosphere based battles, so I would like to get this ground based battle under way.

I know Remaeus has requested you start the thread with you guys entering the atmosphere, however, I am actually perfectly cool to roll with the city being surrounded as the start of the ground battle. What are other people's thoughts on this?

So yeah, we should probably get this started, and hopefully we can move away from the mess that has become the space battle.

Your thoughts on this, SugarCube, would be appreciated. Feel free to send me a PM, or just reply on here. I am hoping we can make the ground battle a TRUE collaborative effort. As it should be, anyway.
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Arrogance on Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:43 am

╣Sugarcube╠ wrote:Argon stays in Prophet stays in. And if the Prophet stays in I'm pulling everything she (speaking about the Prophet here) has out. Which, I know for a damn fact, that Argon or the Trantor fleet will NOT survive. If you want to try your luck, go ahead. But I'm not bluffing on this shit.

So this is my last stand for Argon to be removed. I'm more then willing to have Gaël be vanquished and Prophet killed. It would only be temporary anyways.



Agron, not Argon.

and i'm terrified, truly, I am.

You know, as much as I would love to hear you and others ramble on about what you think is "fair" or "not fair", you clearly did not read my previous post very well. The Trantor Alliance, from what they've told me over IM in private, can and will stop a Creation Cannon blast. And the manner in which they do it IS legal. However, what Oni did is NOT, and the difference has been clearly pointed out.


The creation cannon blast does not NEED to be stopped it already has been stopped. This wasn't just agron stepping up to the plate to stop this blast, this was the work of multiple characters in conjunction.

If you knew you couldn't handle it, then why the hell did you bother to interfere in the first place? Were you just THAT eager to try and show off or what?


I'll handle it. I just dont want to hear you or sugarplum over there whining about every counter that's thrown at every turn of the game.

There is no recoil, that's why.


I want to hear how a cannon that can destroy two planets has absolutely no recoil.

Let's say, someone else attacks him. He absorbs that as well. Someone else does something to him, yep, easily countered. We go to the ground battle now, people start fighting him there, more issues come up, but hell, Mr. Slayer here in his vast infinite knowledge figures its a GOOD IDEA to just continue to let this bullshit slide JUST so everyone can keep playing.


He has wasted turns simply preparing for a defense mechanism. He can't just simply 'absorb anything that's thrown at him'. Agron didn't absorb the blast he simply broke it down so that it would be more managable and could be handled by the shields Alucroas and Gennosuke have set around the Xelas.


Here's an idea. Maybe he SHOULDN'T have tried to use Agron in the first place.


I'm starting to see more and more where this is just looking like a hate on biological creatures and that technology cannot be countered by something that doesn't have equally as powerful technology. I would hate to see this happen in CvC, too.

Maybe he SHOULD have given more thought to his character's limits so that he didn't come off as a blatant God. Maybe you SHOULDN'T have gotten involved in a space battle where you are seriously out-classed in the first place and have even admitted to such.


Outclassed? More liked shocked at the lack of common sense the 9th fleet has shown. I told you, anything you can throw I can deal with. What I can't handle is your accusations of someone god-modding the moment they counter your big bang kamehamehas, as for ryand, he probably wont get an acceptable counter in either, because of course stopping your attack would be god-modding and power-playing, so far as i'm concerned agrons counter is perfectly legitimate and i'm going to act as such icly.
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby King. on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:26 am

And whichever admin edited my post, do put in to count that the space/aerial fights have all lead to stupid drama. Space fights take WAY to much drama before a reasonable end is come through because each side has technology that they thing is better then the others.

And as for Saladin. I'm more then content with what you said. Either one works for me. I'm going to push to have it later today, though some issues MIGHT occur. So to be safe I think you should put it up, I have less then a half hour to ready myself and leave my house to take care of some issues.
Last edited by Remæus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Removed aggressive language from the post to prevent further flames in response.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby LordSaladin on Sat Apr 05, 2008 11:48 am

Okay, SugarCube, sweet. I think, for ease of use, we should just go with Zephyr being around the city, and Zerel and the Kelante army appearing. And it saves me scouring the other thread.

If we go from there, it will be cool. I shall make the relevant posts later on today.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alucroas on Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:07 pm

If you wanna lay my concerns to rest, I suggest you start trying to prove to me just why Agron should be allowed to remain. What makes him not a God and how the fuck do you kill something that can absorb a Creation Cannon blast? Let's hear this explanation, because as it stands, I fail to see how you're somehow different than the Prophet, and it was removed for exactly the same reasons. And yeah, I'M the one who had Forby remove it. It wasn't anyone else. So let's hear how you are any different.


You want proof, then I'll give you proof.

#1 He CANNOT infect himself with the creation energy unless he has help, which he got from Alucroas, thus he didn't just God Mod his way through and take your attack as if it were nothing.

#2 It had been prepped for multiple turns, building it up over a specific time-frame where it would have enough fortitude in order to pull off such a maneuver.

#3 This was demonstrated earlier on how AGRON cannot absorb that kind of energy, which is why half of his body got blown to shit when the Prophet fired the anti-matter at him while he was attacking the ship.

YOU, however, along with Slayer and his Xelas, AREN'T helping matters in the least. And quite frankly, you shouldn't be making characters with those kinds of abilities anyway and then using them in things like this. Doing that in order to "compensate" for your lack of firepower and technology is wrong.


We shouldn't have to conform to your style of role playing just so we can use powerful abilities. That right there is blatant dictation.

Also, I never asked for the Prophet to be removed but to simply cut down somewhat on the uber-speed that had been going on, and for that reason I don't see why I should have to defend my case for Agron.

The 9th Fleet is going to stay in space, as was intended. Its only meant to shield the ground forces from an orbital attack, and to remove all hostile presence from the region of space around New Terra which may prove as a threat. Agron, however, is likely going to be sticking around to fight, so if you intend on doing this, I'm going to need to know how you differ from the Prophet with your seemingly impossible to defeat character (Yeah, from my perspective, not really seeing much in a way to kill Agron, not unless you "choose" to let someone beat him, and that's utter nonsense).


One of the methods you attempted to kill him with actually would've worked, but since I prepared a massive defense to go along with it, it didn't work. That's ONE way to beat him. I actually hinted in my post as to how to beat him with an alternative method (with extreme subtly of course) - because I'm not going to simply give out information to ANYONE as to how he can be beaten to avoid any possible meta gaming. Not saying that you will meta-game, but it's just a precaution.

Besides, it's up to you to figure out how to defeat him, not for me to tell you how.

The massive attacks coming from the starships will flat-out STOP if people stop trying to pick a fight with them. They're only there to secure the perimeter around New Terra to prevent our ground forces from being attacked from orbit, as was pointed out in my post. The ONLY reason we have our space forces mobilized in the first place is because the Trantor guys showed up with their assault force of warships at the very start of this, and now they've brought in more after having told us that they were going to just surrender and back-out. So if you really wanna blame someone for there being "big guns" involved in this? *Points at the Trantor people*


All these attacks are coming at you for IC reasons, which is enough justification as it is. Agron's perspective is simply this: He thinks you're going to blow up the planet and obliterate any and all resources for him to maintain a body in, so if he wants to stay alive, he's going to do whatever it takes to obliterate those crafts. Agron doesn't know you're only there for defensive purposes, and when he sees a blast come out of nowhere that can cut straight through the planet, anyone with half a brain would think "Gee, I have the power to stop this, I'm going to try and fucking stop it."

The planet is also Alucroas' home as well because earth which was his previous planet got destroyed in a war prior to this one, which is also enough justification for him to try and defend the planet. He doesn't know your intentions, however he's acting based off what he's seeing, and from his own personal experience, which is him constantly being under attack by one organism, machine, person, etc or another.

He sees that Agron is obviously fighting something that appears to be coming from space, so he goes to space because that's where he thinks the enemy is.

That's enough IC justification for them to be attacking you IN SPACE.

As for Slayer, you'll have to ask him about the intentions of his characters, since I don't know exactly.

So point, blank, I prepared Agron for any future attacks, readied him with a defense for multiple turns which is a common method used in regular spars as well as RP-fights to determine levels of power - thus stripping him of any God-like qualities, gave IC reasons for why they're fighting you in space, explained how the things in the Dark Realm work, how it's formed, how the process works, gave examples of these concepts, and feel no need to explain myself any further.

I had a minor problem with Prophet and didn't think he needed to get removed, it was only ONE thing that annoyed me and that was his uber-speed.

Back to technology justifies massive amounts of powers and characters can't because they're biological. It's called thinking creatively, and going with an unorthodox style of fighting. I don't like using technology, so I'm not going to use it.

I come up with ways to combine my characters abilities and use their powers in different ways instead of going by the norm - which I refuse to accept or conform to for ANYONE'S personal convenience. I use their abilities in a scientific fashion to counter technology which uses concepts of science in order to fight.

The references I made to various plants and animals being able to control what's in their body was just a MINOR example, and not meant to be used as something that could relate to something of a different level. I was just saying that they CAN do that, but not on a level of battling quantum physics. My characters are conscious of their abilities and know how to use them, partially because they've adapted to it through experience as well as having fought against CHARACTERS that have been known to use these types of abilities. I never gave my characters more abilities, I just found different ways to use them.

Nothing is black and white, and there's always shades of gray.

Case in point:
Go with the flow. Simple enough, I'm not complaining or asking for an explanation every time I see something I think is unbelievably powerful, I find a way to combat it, and simply move on.


Now here's where I go through the grueling task of explaining the sequence of events in which lead to this powerful defense.

#1 Agron gets consumed by the Dark Realm substance in the form of a pillar and gets infected, initiating the first step of the defense. That's in ONE post.

#2 Agron gets a secondary layer of defense when he gets shot through the electrical shield that had been surrounding the ship thanks to Alucroas.

There's your TWO prep posts when normally I should only have to prep for one turn, however given the fact that I knew he was going to up against something powerful, I thought it would be fair if I charged the defense for two turns instead of just the one. I set up these defenses, not only to protect Agron but to set up a trap.

The trap involved first having the electrical energy convert to a stasis where it could regulate the flow of power into the Dark Realm substance to break down and ready it for Agron to infect himself with, then using the Dark Realm's power to break apart material and use it to gather the necessary information that Alucroas would need to encompass the ship within the sub-plane via the Dark Realm. There was also a secondary plane surrounding the ship, which fueled the process and sped it up, matching the time-frame in which the blast would've impacted Xelas.

Charges are a common source of regulating matter as well as creating new elements, which is Alucroas' main ability. I just decided to come up with a new way to use these charges, and instead of just creating new elements, arrange the matter in a given radius and create a sub-plane within the universe. It's focused into one spot, and can be expanded depending on if Alucroas were to remain relatively stationary and continue adding power into it for a given number of posts.

I'm not sure if I ever actually described what would be seen on the outside, but pretty much to anyone who would be watching from the universe itself, would most likely be seeing a massive transparent outline of fluctuating charges flowing through what would be represented visually as something gelatinous, however that's just the image it gives off.


PS: I'd appreciate it if you cut out the degrading comments, which is really growing to be quite fucking bothersome. I've held my tongue, so I should be allowed to expect that you do the same for me, as well as SugarCube. I don't give a rat's ass if he's a Hot Head.

And believe me, I'm one Hell of a Hot Head in chat, but I don't take my frustrations here like someone whose immature.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jii on Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:58 pm

The very fact that you're not taking into account, that preparing a heavily loaded defense can stop a heavily loaded offense by cancelling each other out has never really appealed to you from what I'm gathering here.


Did you not read Rensu's post? And as for you "preparing" things. First off, the vast majority of your posts are insanely difficult to follow. I already told you before via PM that I've had multiple people, from different forums even, reading your posts in order to figure them out. You were even saying my actual SN in your post in question rather than my character's name. Seriously now. And second off, I'm going based off of the explanations you've give, and the analysis of your character, which I've already detailed in full.

Believe it or not, Agron CAN be beaten, and how he gets beaten is extremely simple once figured out, and while it may not actually be beating in the way you THINK he should be beaten, as long as he's out of your hair then the problem should be solved. Agron does have limits.


Sorry. That's not the answer I was looking for. You need to explain how you're supposed to beat him, so that we can see whether or not he's a Power Gamer. And from what you just said about "while it may not actually be beating in the way you THINK", you're sounding EXACTLY like a fella some of us once knew as Gale, who had a character that he said "you can beat him, but not in a normal sense of beating". Turns out, you COULDN'T kill him at all. You had to "remove his avatar" from that universe in order to defeat him. Guess what? THAT'S POWER GAMING.

Bottom line. You claimed to have control over everything in the Material Plane. You claimed your runes can absorb energy sent at them. When I asked you for their limit, you said 3 times, which sounded more like a "well I never gave it any real thought, but I'll just say three for the hell of it". So you apparently chose "NOT" to give your absorption capabilities any sort of limits when you were creating Agron, and can somehow take in two shots of enough raw force to decimate two planets. That sets the bar pretty high for what kinds of energy you're able to just scoff at.

So, we can cross out Energy Attacks as being feasible. There's not much sense in trying to freeze you, cause you'd likely just manipulate the chemical make-up of the ice. Melting you is pointless, because you could just re-form yourself afterwards. You don't seem to exhibit any signs of pain. Could dice your body into tiny pieces, assuming you don't turn your body into a molten lava state, but even then that apparently doesn't kill you. Can't vaporize you because that just failed with the Creation Cannons, and I'm really not sure what you expect someone to use instead if you can just cancel it out like you did. Apparently, its impossible to make you overload with how much energy you're taking in, because you apparently don't have any limits in place for your character and never intended for there to be any. You can survive in a vacuum, so I can't suffocate you to death. You aren't biological, so even the Phantasma's N-Cannon won't phase you. We're in space, so I can't exactly get any Death Dealers or Faith Chanters close enough to you to attack Agron's soul directly.

So yeah. Get busy explaining what your version of "beating" him is, cause I'm clearly missing something here.

#1 He CANNOT infect himself with the creation energy unless he has help, which he got from Alucroas, thus he didn't just God Mod his way through and take your attack as if it were nothing.

#2 It had been prepped for multiple turns, building it up over a specific time-frame where it would have enough fortitude in order to pull off such a maneuver.

#3 This was demonstrated earlier on how AGRON cannot absorb that kind of energy, which is why half of his body got blown to shit when the Prophet fired the anti-matter at him while he was attacking the ship.


Its "Power Gaming", not "God Moding". That would be if you couldn't explain it. And I really don't see how you figured any of us would've been able to stop this long winded process from happening, especially when it was only a two post deal, which you even said it would've normally just been one. I don't think you realize. If "I" was using your character, no one would ever touch me. I don't personally see a means in which you can defeat Agron, as I've already detailed up above, because you can now apparently absorb stuff like the Creation Cannon blasts and have apparently added that to your defense. Which makes seriously NO SENSE at all. Its unstable, raw force. You basically said you can "control" a Big Bang.

And there's no recoil because its being "released" from the TS-System. Its not traveling through any kind of barrel like a regular energy weapon. The energy is siphoned off, and let loose from the dimensional chamber. Thus, no back-kick. Its form is kept in check by the TS-System which is projected along with it so that the beam doesn't just go "boom" and wipe everything in the region, which would include the planet. Yet you're "apparently" controlling it by manipulating its properties? Coulda sworn "FORCE" didn't have a chemical make-up. But you absorbed it just fine anyway, so like I said, you've painted yourself out to be a God because you can apparently control everything in existence so long as it resides within the physical realm.

Rather, the Dark Realm is where the Power Gaming seems to be stemming from, that's like your major reason for being capable of doing these god-like feats. The Anti-Universe and Building Blocks of the Universe? That doesn't sound like something God would be capable of?

And the "controller" for this power is Agron's spirit. Your willpower is the key factor, because without that you wouldn't be able to do the things you do. Rock doesn't just change its composition, its rock. How do you justify a single awareness being able to wield such control over something that powerful and still maintain your Construct? See, this is my problem, its like you gave no real thought to this kind of stuff. You just came up with the idea taken from science and applied it to your character's concept without really trying to delve into the actual mechanics of things. The "limits" come "naturally" after you think everything through. "Yeah, I can do this, but there's a natural limit to just how much he can withstand before he loses his grip".

To quote what you said before. Pour enough water on a rock, and it will turn to mud. Well, the rock just got greeted by a tsunami.

Alright, the ground based thread is now up, with the two posts pertaining to the ground battle put in quotes on the first post.

Hopefully, as I have already mentioned, we can all work in cooperation with this thread, to make it an enjoyable experience. We need to keep IC hostilities out of OOC discussions, I think.

I have, whether it be my better judgement or not, made a separate OOC thread for the ground battle. Manly to keep it separate from the mess that is this thread.


Once there is a lull in the action in space, I'll try to get the ground forces accompanying the 9th Fleet out and to that thread.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Remæus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:27 pm

Deleted that thread, as it's Sugarcube's prerogative to create the ground assault thread in the manner which I've specified. Also, rather than copy and pasting other posts, I'll move the posts from the existing thread as necessary, whenever Sugarcube is ready.

I also take it that no one has read my last post here, as you guys continue to debate issues that were resolved by my post? Nor has anyone responded or provided any feedback to it? We're all putting forth effort here, but it is an entire waste of my time if no one is even going to look at my posts.
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jii on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:34 pm

That didn't resolve anything. You said to just let it go and continue on as if everything was fine. No, its not fine, and I have a serious problem with Agron's existence and the character himself. I've already given my reasons for such, and keep waiting for an explanation on how it is you're suppose to beat something comparable to a God. Something that makes him seem less godly, cause its not JUST CKers who think the same thing about him Power Gaming.

I already said I would deal with what he's done. But as for whether or not Agron remains apart of this war afterwards is entirely dependent upon the explanation he gives.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Casanova on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:37 pm

You're calling Agron a God-like character, and you compare your creation cannons to unleashing a power comparable to the Big Bang. Now I'm not sure how to explain this in the best way, but, wouldn't the creation cannons be a God-mod? Why? Since people believe that God created everything, or a god, and the big bang would just be an ability used to create it.

Also, Sugar Cube. I'm not trying to start another argument, but I believe you buried yourself with this comment, on the basis that Gael and his "angel" are in fact a very obvious God-mod. Since..."And just fyi, it isn't angel technology. The base for the Prophet is, in fact, an actual angel being in which was removed from the Heavens of Gaël old planet when Rei, Gaël sister, was placed into a false death." And actual angel? Angel's are messenger of God, and possess godly, angelic powers...so if there is no technology, it's a God-mod, aye?
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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jii on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:48 pm

You're calling Agron a God-like character, and you compare your creation cannons to unleashing a power comparable to the Big Bang. Now I'm not sure how to explain this in the best way, but, wouldn't the creation cannons be a God-mod?


People used to claim, in real life, that Nuclear Bombs were an act of playing God. Bottom line is that technology is more believable in that its something you can create, with tools and materials. What Agron claims to be capable of is using the power of his soul to control the very fabric of reality, which is basically what the Dark Realm sums up as. Yeah, there is a difference here. And he still claims to be a "normal" character, which is impossible because in order to have an ability like that you would need to be a God or God-like.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Remæus on Sat Apr 05, 2008 3:52 pm

The bottom line is that everyone is using things that are way beyond acceptable levels of power, and it's turned something that is imaginary into something that we're trying to quantify with real world logic and rationale - which can't be done.

Ryand-Smith: The sheer amount of power you are writing into your posts is unacceptable.
Sugarcube: You are neglecting to acknowledge things, and it comes across to other players as godmoding.
Oni-Link: The power of your characters have escalated beyond the scope of what the war requires.
Jii: Attempting to rationalize a work of fiction is the bane of enjoyment.

Most of the more experienced players are refraining from getting involved because there's simply too much power floating around in character, and too much drama out of character. I've refrained from mentioning names up until now, but it's necessary. Those of you who I've mentioned are the key proprietors of this - if you guys gain a sense of humility, stop focusing on what other people are doing, and do what is necessary for others to be satiated, we can move along.

And no, nothing is peachy - but the bottom line is that there are solutions present, if everyone can get over themselves and just have fun, like I've said.

Blatantly calling people "jackasses" and insulting their method of play doesn't help, either. We're not competing. We're working together. Stop it.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alucroas on Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:00 pm

Wrong, wrong, wrong, and more wrong.

But for the sake of going back on my word for trying to agree with Remaeus and end this argument I'll tell you how Agron can be beaten.

Erasing him from existence completely is a way to destroy him. Anti-Matter can kill him, which is why half of his body got blown to shit when the Prophet attacked him. I set a limit to how much energy he can infect himself with and that once he uses that particular energy, he CANNOT use it again unless he comes across an energy of a similar type or the exact same.

Erasing the awareness that IS AGRON is a way to kill him, trapping him in a void and isolating him isn't necessarily killing him, but it gets him out of your hair for all eternity because he has no way to escape and can pretty much be called dead. If he attempts to have more than three different energies stored inside the runes he WILL DIE end of story and he's already reached that limit, from when he locked onto Xelas position, infected himself with the Dark Realm substance, and had electrical energy surrounding him.

Agron is NOT a God character of mine, just one that gives off the illusion of God Modding because of the immense feats he's capable of given the CORRECT circumstances.

Also, removing the energy he's infected himself with is VERY possible by simply targeting the runes on his body, or you can erase his ability to infect himself all together by destroying the crystals he has located where an ordinary humans eyes would be.

There you have it, I gave you a multitude of ways to kill him, and am SICK OF THIS FUCKING DEBATE.

And if I see a single hint of meta-gaming anywhere with my Agron character I will jump down someone's throat. I was extremely uncomfortable giving away the keys to defeating Agron.

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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Jii on Sat Apr 05, 2008 5:08 pm

Out of curiosity, when you were designing this character, how many people did you think would be capable of defeating him? Let's do a rundown of this...

Erasing him from existence completely is a way to destroy him.


I don't know very many people who can do that, do you?

Anti-Matter can kill him, which is why half of his body got blown to shit when the Prophet attacked him.


A-M Weapons should technically kill anyone. But once you've "infected" yourself with it, that no longer serves as a weakness, am I wrong?

I set a limit to how much energy he can infect himself with and that once he uses that particular energy, he CANNOT use it again unless he comes across an energy of a similar type or the exact same.


That's somewhat confusing, really. Essentially, its like saying a Human takes in the element of Fire, and element of Ice, and the element of Electricity. They gain all three elements as an immunity and can totally manipulate them. Correct? So, you absorb something like the Creation Cannon, which is actually more FORCE than anything, which would have technically blown your body to pieces along with the runes and crystals upon impact. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not mean you now possess an immunity and the power of equal proportion to a Creation Cannon blast times two? Yeah, this is all pretty messy to me.

I don't see how being infected by the physical properties of such things would defend you from them. You're still talking controlling the make-up of them, but haven't made any mention to the Kinetic Energy involved, which is where the actual damage is coming from with a CC shot (Well, actually it'd be a Physical and Energy attack combined into one, which would make it more powerful than the U-Cannons which are just straight up Kinetic Force. So really the Creation Cannons are delivering heavy hitters for both kinds of attacks). Judging by what you've said, you would have dealt with the Energy aspect of it, the atoms and molecules, etc. But not the Physical aspect, which was the raw force made from the explosion. And Rensu has also explained this, but his post was totally ignored.

The way you described it, the entire blast was absorbed into the crystals, which you've stated previously were just regular crystals, nothing special in the least. So that means you took EVERYTHING of the blast into yourself, and that is what I'm calling you out on for Power Gaming with (Well, that was the original reason I had. But after further hearing that you could control the building blocks of the material realm...yeah, I found more reasons to call you on it). The only "logical" way for that to have worked would have been if you were a God, which you've said you aren't, so that doesn't help your case any, and in fact draws in that it may have been God Moding, since you would have ignored the sheer "hit" you received that you even said Agron had made contact with.

Yeah, not sure if this has gotten the original point of mine across or not, or if this has gotten you to see my perspective on it. But basically, if you could survive the Creation Cannon blasts, which is the extreme of both Energy and Physical based attacks, then technically you could survive any attack tossed at you unless you do things like...

Erasing the awareness that IS AGRON is a way to kill him, trapping him in a void and isolating him isn't necessarily killing him, but it gets him out of your hair for all eternity because he has no way to escape and can pretty much be called dead.


And really, its the same as the Prophet's AT-Field, that maybe not YOU, but OTHERS were complaining about. Its one of those things you have to go to ridiculous extremes to defeat or do things that most people would not be capable of, character wise or skill wise. How many people do you figure have the ability to cast things into the void? Or erase an awareness? I'm not talking the Crimson Knights anymore, hell even around here at RPGateway. How many people in general did you assume would be able to deal with Agron?

I believe, personally, that Agron is one of those characters better left for story development purposes, not for actual RP Fighting. Yeah, CK has the capability of dealing with him, I never said we didn't. But it still forces even us to go to extremes that would rather not be used. In the future, here at RPGateway or elsewhere, I would suggest using different characters that don't come off as being Gods, and you just admitted to that being exactly the case with Agron:

Agron is NOT a God character of mine, just one that gives off the illusion of God Modding because of the immense feats he's capable of given the CORRECT circumstances.


Correct circumstances or not, doesn't make it any less wrong. As has been explained, Argon would in fact not have been able to survive the Creation Cannon blasts because the other half of the spectrum does not fall in line with his powers. I've grown tired of this debating, and would rather just move things along and get to a safe point where I can release our ground forces onto New Terra.

So, here are two choices. Well, first off, Agron can stay now that I know you aren't trying to punk us with some cheesy God stunt. Choice #1, is that myself and everyone else can just overlook the God Moding, chalk it up to some weird cosmic occurance (Like when you do laundry and clothes just sorta tend to vanish as if being sucked into a void). Or, Choice #2, Oni decides to acknowledge this and edits his post accordingly and we carry on thus.

At this point, I could really care less, so I'll give the decision to him then since he was the one originally offering to edit his post before.

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Re: The Trantor Fleet Engagement (CK Incursion, Battle #1)

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Alucroas on Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:33 pm

A-M Weapons should technically kill anyone. But once you've "infected" yourself with it, that no longer serves as a weakness, am I wrong?


It's only acting as a defense against the creation cannon energy, however say you were to charge the attack for multiple posts then it would eventually become unstable and possibly explode inside Agron say he tries to infect himself with it too much. Or in the instance that if anti-matter were to collide with anti-matter enough times the repulsion that is induced from every time they collide with one another would place a heavy amount of stress on his body and most likely cause him to crack and possibly break apart.

That's somewhat confusing, really. Essentially, its like saying a Human takes in the element of Fire, and element of Ice, and the element of Electricity. They gain all three elements as an immunity and can totally manipulate them. Correct? So, you absorb something like the Creation Cannon, which is actually more FORCE than anything, which would have technically blown your body to pieces along with the runes and crystals upon impact. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but does that not mean you now possess an immunity and the power of equal proportion to a Creation Cannon blast times two? Yeah, this is all pretty messy to me.


When I say infect, I really mean INFECT and there's a pretty big difference between absorbing the power and getting infected by it. Using the electricity example, Agron can't necessarily let off bursts of electrical energy because it's not necessarily a power, simply a part of his body. If he were to walk to you and tap you on the shoulder you'd probably get shocked, because he has energy flowing through his body similar to an infection, but it's not something he can disperse, but rather something he has to use physically. I simply describe it as an infection because like any other infection it can be gotten rid of.


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Re: The Crimson Knight Incursion

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby King. on Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:55 pm

Oni-Link wrote:#3 This was demonstrated earlier on how AGRON cannot absorb that kind of energy, which is why half of his body got blown to shit when the Prophet fired the anti-matter at him while he was attacking the ship.



This is as far as I had read when I had seen this. However if HALF of his body got exploded with a weapon such as the Lohengrin then why is something more powerful then a hundred Lohengrin not able to kill it? Seems slightly... Odd? Hmm, not the word I was looking for but it would work for a suitable substitute. Anyways...

-shrugs-

I'm outt'a this space fight...
::Before posting edit::
Actually, reading into this thing. Baptista, no that isn't god-modding. An angel is an angel, not a god. I have also place a HUGE amount of restrictions during this war. In any other place she was able to surpass the speed of light, even when equipped with full armor. Now it's only with it removed.

She was equipped with thrice as much weapons, I had removed many of them which had included, but wasn't limited to black hole guns and the such.

Her atomic structure was also five times as difficult to understand then it is now. Now I'm putting it off as a pure angel, which is essentially a human being in which has surpassed the mortal realm and been given infinite life by the gods themself. True, she can't die. However Gaël can. As such if Gaël dies the she is removed from the fight as well.


A second way to remove both Gaël and Prophet from the fight is to kill Rei. If she dies then she is sent back into heaven, her spirit at least. Currently she has two souls inside the mortal world. A good one and an evil one, good in the form of a human and evil in the shape of Prophet. However Heero wouldn't let that happen, and using that information would be considered metagaming of various levels. As not even Rei or the prophet or anybody else knows of that.

::Getting back on track::
I'm back. I might be able to get the topic up tonight. Pretty much got killed today at work and the like. We'll see how it comes, ne?

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Re: The Trantor Fleet Engagement (CK Incursion, Battle #1)

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby Ryand-Smith on Sat Apr 05, 2008 10:04 pm

Yeah, I'm starting to STGOD this, when it isn't a tactic RP, its a character battle, I think I should try to figure out how to make it more one on one, so, for a bit, I'm going to be reading. Posting in this thread and the IC one will be slower. How do I go personal, when mental I know that the ships have enough power to destroy the surface like t was nothing.

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Re: The Trantor Fleet Engagement (CK Incursion, Battle #1)

Tips: 0.00 INK Postby quanta on Sun Apr 06, 2008 3:02 am

For what it's worth...

Antimatter is the opposite of matter. It isn't some "ultimate" weapon - it simply is the name for the opposing particle in its correspondent matter. As each particle is equivalent and opposite, when these particles meet, they annhilate one another: they cease to exist and their kinetic and rest-mass energy is converted into other particles (E = mc^2).

Take for example, the reaction between an electron and a positron (assuming both particles are at rest); two gamma rays are the result, each with energy 511 keV. The resulting gamma rays bound off in opposite directions (uh, basic newtonian physics), as both energy and momentum must be conserved (I'm sure you've all gone over this in high school physics). You can observe this in action (y being the two photons (gamma rays) being produced):

Image

When a proton and an antiproton annihilate (again, assuming both particles are at rest), other particles are typically produced, but in this case, the total kinetic plus rest mass energies of these products adds up to twice the rest mass energy of the proton (2 x 938 MeV).

It is because of this nature that antiparticles (antimatter) are very difficult to store - they interact with normal matter in this annihilation reaction, which leads me to quest how Jii is utilizing these antimatter weapons. The only fashion reasonable would be to contain the antimatter in a combination of electric and magnetic fields, but obviously this would only work for charged particles (for those of you who are unable to follow, only charged particles can be affected by other charges...).

With that in mind, I imagine we're all willing to ignore that much, or assume he's producing the antimatter on the spot... which is entirely unlikely, as he's obviously using particle accelerators of some sort to direct the antimatter stream, and any sensible engineer would be out of their mind to not conserve the angular momentum generated in antimatter manufacturing.

In any case, looking at the sheer amount of particles that we're talking about here - let's assume that Jii is somehow able to produce this antimatter in such large quantities that would allow him to annihilate equal and equivalent portions of matter on Agron's body - this would generate a ridiculous amount of radiation in various forms, and would be an uncontrollable reaction once released. In effect, the amount of energy put into the manufacturing of this massive amount of antimatter should be doubled - as, again:

Image<= Same equation.

...and now we have the big bang, multiplied by a factor of two, resulting in the irradiation of the surrounding universe, as it would be inundated by the resulting explosion of particles, ranging from bosons to gluons, and the obvious high energy photons, as I've described as gamma rays.

Image

(Where n is the amount of antimatter Jii decided to use, which annihilates an equal amount of Agron's composing particles... all other notations are standard. (t for time, etc.))

Congratulations, you moron. You just ended reality.
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