What's the Point of Religion?

dealing with it · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **dealing with it** on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:45 pm

If an alien came to our planet looking for redeeming qualities of our societies, would religion be one?

That is to say, is religion one of man's greatest achiements, or an excuse for atrocities? Would the world be better off without it, or is it necessary for the heights of civilization? Is it an opiate of the masses, used by leaders to control those less unfortunate? Or is it a way for the unfortunate to limit the excesses of their leaders? Or, does it really do nothing, and is religion just a red herring to keep us from looking too closely at reality?

VindicatedPurpose · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **VindicatedPurpose** on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:01 pm

I actually thought the first question was interesting enough for a discussion of its own.

I wouldn't say religion is one of man's greatest achievements. Whether or not the world would be better off without it, is fairly hard to answer. Although religion has progressed alongside civilization has, we can't conclude that religion was therefore responsible for the progression of civilization, or vice versa.

I know it does something, it's managed to acquire a large number of followers, and a large number of detractors. It has become a part of history and politics. It exists, and it is real. It is a philosophy. It is an idea. An idea is powerful. This one just has details to it.

cucumbersome · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **cucumbersome** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 4:40 am

There are so many and so different religions that all of those questions can be answered with both yes and no.

If you average them all (weighted by numbers of followers of course), maybe religion isn’t a good or a bad thing but something that makes our cultures more complex. Without religion we might be more efficient but also less interesting. Maybe a superior alien who examines the religious aspect won’t be looking for redeeming qualities but for entertainment. But being entertaining is likely considered a redeeming quality by superior beings. And aliens who are not superior to us? Those have no business judging us.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:29 am

I hate Ricky Gervais. He’s too satisfied with himself and he’s been eating out on The Office for way longer than he should have been. However I honestly I think he nails religion in this clip from his film The invention of Lying. Before you watch the clip perhaps background is needed. Gervais’ character lives in a world where nobody can lie about anything. One day Ricky discovers he can lie and then the film takes off from there. In this scene he’s visiting his sick mother in hospital.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWXw8STaFlM

I can honestly imagine someone telling a person they love a lie in an effort to ease suffering and make the world seem less harsh. Religion started out as a way to make things seem less scary and to give us a way to feel more in charge of our own future. If the crops failed it must be because we didn’t sacrifice enough bulls. They had no idea about modern farming techniques so no harm no foul (unless you’re a bull of course).

The problems came when people started using religion to further their own station, oppress others and stagnate legitimate scientific accomplishment. Basically when we started valuing the lies we tell each other to feel better over reality.

Nowadays we can use science to explain much of what was once the domain of religion. As time goes on this will only increase and religions bag of tricks will shrink further. If religion in the past was a way to answer difficult questions that role has now been filled by science.

What does religion achieve today? I guess it makes people feel good that someone is looking out for them which is ok if want that sort of thing. What it seems to do a whole lot more of is making people waste their lives achieving nothing, divide communities and just causing problems.

That’s just my take. I don’t like a lot of things though, Religion and Ricky Gervais just happen to be on the list.

As for trying to explain this stuff to an Alien?

I doubt they’d bother stopping here. We point Nuclear weapons at each other, eat steak while others starve and Keeping Up with Kardashians has had 8 seasons.

monkeyman · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **monkeyman** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:29 am

I think the problem with religion is that it has outlived its usefulness. Originally, life was short, brutal, and cruel. Religion was necessary in order to create things such as morality and integrity. However, with the advent of modern morality and technology, religion is holding human progress back. At least, organized religion is.

cucumbersome · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **cucumbersome** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:29 pm

Not all organized religion is holding progress back. When myth is the starting point for a conversation rather than the end of it, organized religion can be very useful. Some people congregate to be told what to believe, others do so to talk with each other about what they believe. The problem is with “truth” being passed top down from “authorities”, not with having an organization.

(A virtual cookie for who can guess my religion from what I wrote above. No cheating by searching my past posts!)

almostinsane · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **almostinsane** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:44 pm

I think religion's point is to pass down the truths that it possesses, like any other category. Most religions share the commandments of 1. Loving God or the gods and 2. Loving your neighbor. When too many rules and dogmas that men make up cloud this, then there is a problem.

Truthfully, I know that many people are not religious on here and have more experience with debating, but I thought I'd put in my two cents. I know, I personally would have killed myself some time ago were it not for my religion along with a few others I have met. So, from a non-religious standpoint, it has a good purpose since it kept me alive.

That's my two cents anyway.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:37 pm

@ almostinsane. I think it’s great you found strength in religion and only the most asshole nonbeliever out there would try to take that away from you. I can only speak for myself and my own non belief when I say the only thing that annoys me about belief systems is when people make claims they cannot back up based on their beliefs. For example when people say gay folks should not be allowed to adopt kids because they are “immoral”. That’s my beef not what people do in private. What individual people get out of their belief systems is their own business and nobody should give you a hard time about what you believe in private.

almostinsane · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **almostinsane** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:43 pm

I agree with that, Bosch, actually. Believe it or not, fundamentalists annoy me as well. Perhaps more than you since I run the risk of being grouped with them.

For gay people... I'd be quite honest and say that adoption laws should be based on facts. If it does no harm, then they should be able to adopt. If it does do harm, they they should not. No politics or moral viewpoints. Simple.

An older brother of mine is gay. He is taking me to see his Pastor and I am looking forward to it. He's probably the one that would marry him and his partner if gay marriage is legalized in my state.

dealing with it · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **dealing with it** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:00 pm

monkeyman wrote:I think the problem with religion is that it has outlived its usefulness. Originally, life was short, brutal, and cruel. Religion was necessary in order to create things such as morality and integrity. However, with the advent of modern morality and technology, religion is holding human progress back. At least, organized religion is.

I wonder if there is a difference between the development of the spirit in the individual, and the development of the spirit in humanity.

That is, perhaps religion is a stage that every individual needs to get through to progress spiritually? When it comes to these matters, we all need to reinvent the wheel to gain the benefit.

Or maybe we osmotically gain the advantages of religion by virtue of our society, so although it appears that religion is obsolete, it imparts advantages on civilization. Were religion to perish, so too would our culture and aspirations.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:01 pm

There is barely a point in religion. I would differentiate religion from belief although they are associated with each other. Religion is more of a community thing, like a club where many people of the same mindset gather but many follow an outdated book. I would call philosophy and spiritual philosophy an achievement but not religion since it often ends up with people using it as an excuse to commit atrocities.

almostinsane · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **almostinsane** on Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:11 pm

I would say that anything and everything can and will be used for attrocities. Race, ideology, greed, spite, etc. It's enough to justify an attrocity. Look at how much trouble nationalism has caused, but there's nothing wrong with being patriotic, is there? It's only when it's taken too far that wars are started.

Heck, culture and advancement has been used as an excuse to conquer less advanced people as seen in the Roman and Hellenistic empires. But, I still admire Greek and Roman culture, even if the Romans were a warmongering people. So, I wouldn't argue that religion isn't advancement based on it being abused. Everything is abused. Darwinism was twisted into Social Darwinism, but science is not evil, even though some people used it in justification for eugenics, scientific racism, and

As for the Bible, I find the principle simplification of "loving God and loving your neighbor" as an essentially beautiful premise to follow, which is the main teaching in the Gospels I subscribe to which I logically base my every action on.

And, forgive me for using the "I" word, but I've visited a mosque before. My best friend invited me there and I never saw a community so close-knit. Most were immigrants and came from different parts of the world, but their mosque gave them a spiritual home.

Now, I'm not going to argue about Islam because I do not know enough about it. But I think that visit helped me realize why Stalin worked hard to destroy the Orthodox churches in Eastern Europe. It was ideology, certainly. The "religion is the opiate of the masses" thing. But those churches also retained ethnic traditions and values which he wanted to be replaced with Communism/Stalinism. With those churches gone or weakened, Stalin could shape Eastern Europe according to his design much easier.

Notice I say easier. Stalin had the army behind him to crush resistance and he regularly did whenever armed rebellion broke out. But, elsewhere, in Poland, it provided support for the Solidarity Movement. Solidarity was the first non-Communist controlled trade union in the Eastern Bloc and this movement was rooted in Catholic social teaching.

In Solicitudo Rei Socialis, a major document of Catholic Social Teaching, Pope John Paul II identifies the concept of solidarity with the poor and marginalized as a constitutive element of the Gospel and human participation in the common good. The Roman Catholic Church, under the leadership of Pope John Paul II, was a very powerful supporter of the union and was greatly responsible for its success. Lech Wałęsa, who himself publicly displayed Catholic piety, confirmed the Pope's influence, saying: The Holy Father, through his meetings, demonstrated how numerous we were. He told us not to be afraid.[13]

In addition, the priest Jerzy Popiełuszko, who regularly gave sermons to the striking workers, was eventually killed by the Communist regime for his association with Solidarity. Polish workers themselves were closely associated with the Church, which can be seen in the photographs taken during strikes in the 1980s. On the walls of several factories, portraits of the Virgin Mary or John Paul II were visible.

The survival of Solidarity was an unprecedented event not only in Poland, a satellite state of the USSR ruled (in practice) by a one-party Communist regime, but the whole of the Eastern bloc. It meant a break in the hard-line stance of the communist Polish United Workers' Party, which had bloodily ended a 1970 protest with machine gun fire (killing dozens and injuring over 1,000), and the broader Soviet communist regime in the Eastern Bloc, which had quelled both the 1956 Hungarian Uprising and the 1968 Prague Spring with Soviet-led invasions.

Solidarity's influence led to the intensification and spread of anti-communist ideals and movements throughout the countries of the Eastern Bloc, weakening their communist governments. The 4 June 1989 elections in Poland where anti-communist candidates won a striking victory sparked off a succession of peaceful anti-communist revolutions in Central and Eastern Europe[9] known as the Revolutions of 1989 (Jesień Ludów). Solidarity's example was repeated in various ways by opposition groups throughout the Eastern Bloc, eventually leading to the Eastern Bloc's effective dismantling, and contributing to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, in the early 1990s.

Solidarity also voiced its support of trade unions in capitalist countries. During the UK miner's strike, President of Upper Silesia Solidarity David Jastrzebski voiced support of the striking miners. "Neither the British government’s mounted police charges nor its truncheon blows, any more than the Polish junta’s tanks or rifle fire, can break our common will to struggle for a better future for the working class."[14]

Solidarity Party has strongly inspired and influenced the protests of the Arab Spring as well as the Occupy movement. The leader, Lech Wałęsa has visited Tunisian protestors in Tunisia in 2011.
Solidarity, ETUC Demonstration - Budapest 2011

In late 2008, several democratic opposition groups in the Russian Federation formed a Solidarity movement.[15]

Of course, if you supported Communism during the Cold War, you might not like this. Most Poles I know link their religion with their nationality in small part because Poland was able to become free.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Fri Jun 21, 2013 9:04 pm

I mean it is often used as an excuse, though I know people so religious that they think that responsibility is not theirs but something divine, which disgusts me. Surely not all Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists or Jews are bad (cant name all otherwise the list gets too long). Bad: Muslims have their Wahhabis and Salafis. Jews have their Ultra-Orthodox. Christians have their fundies such as Born-Agains. Hindus, well there is no particular sect that spread hate but some Hindus are bad. Buddhists have their particular Thai and Burmese sects that speak against the principle of Buddhism itself by fighting each other or killing Muslims. With Animists, I cant really tell since there are so few of us (under 50000 in Europe and probably a couple million in Africa and Asia).

almostinsane · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **almostinsane** on Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:29 pm

Excuses are easy. Everyone and anyone can make them. Religion is easily replacable in this regard. Nationalism could very easily replace religion in that regard within the War on Terror. Osama bin Laden in his statements made it clear he resented the prescence of the U.S. in the Middle East and the U.S. gives credence to this with propping up Saddam Hussein, who did gas a huge number of Kurds in the name of nationalism, Ghadafi, Mubarek, and the Shah of Iran to name a few. All this was done for oil and this made America into the "Great Satan". This does not justify terrorism, but it does answer how Osama got people to join him.

This is one example. There are others, but then, one can subscribe to Fox`s "They hate us because we're free." I would say religion is a red herring, not the cause.

As for Animists, I think there are fewer bad ones because of their smaller numbers: the law of probabilities and all that; there are other factors involved too. I did run into one who declared me his avowed enemy because I was Christian. He was from Africa and proud of traditional African culture. I think that gives a clue for why Buddhists in certain countries fight with Muslims: blaming groups of people collectively for past events and fear of invading cultures.

I think Collectivism is bad. I would not judge groups, even sub-groups of people. You can only judge on an individual level. Groups are made up of people, good and bad. Those will always exist and they will always have an excuse ready.

RjWaltz · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **RjWaltz** on Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:34 pm

This question is fascinating. I would have to say that the point of religion is to place order on the chaos of the world. By that I mean, when the first human discovered a tiger, it was known as a "giant monster with sharp claws and huge teeth." When we humans put a name to it, the tiger gained a sort of order, which made it less scary. In this context, it's terrifying to see the chaos of natural disaster, disease, war, famine, fatal accidents, and other bizarre occurrences around the world. So, we humans placed a name to some sort of "creator" who looks out for us, and, in essence, gives us a reason to live. Which would you be most comfortable with, a chaotic random series of events until your unknown time of death, or a series of planned events by an unseen hand until your return to Heaven/ reincarnation / other form of afterlife?

Anyway, my point is that it is hard to confirm whether or not religion is a good or bad thing. The reason is because humanity can't universally decide until the use of such a thing has come to pass. Unfortunately, no system has been made that has taken the place of religion, so it's impossible to be objective about it while it's still being used.

Maybe it will be, someday.

cucumbersome · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **cucumbersome** on Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:20 am

RjWaltz wrote:Which would you be most comfortable with, a chaotic random series of events until your unknown time of death, or a series of planned events by an unseen hand until your return to Heaven/ reincarnation / other form of afterlife?

I’d pick chaos instead of planned events anytime, and perhaps that explains my polytheistic preference. When there are many gods having lots of conflicting interests, that can be used to explain the chaos of the physical world without any of them doing anything truly evil. If there’s a single god with a plan that involves things like killing lots of people using natural disasters, I’d rather not worship him/her/it.

As for the afterlife, it seems the happier I am, the more I like to believe in reincarnation. Go figure.

RjWaltz wrote:Anyway, my point is that it is hard to confirm whether or not religion is a good or bad thing. The reason is because humanity can't universally decide until the use of such a thing has come to pass. Unfortunately, no system has been made that has taken the place of religion, so it's impossible to be objective about it while it's still being used.

Maybe it will be, someday.

How could something replace religion without becoming a religion?

almostinsane · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **almostinsane** on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:47 pm

I think that a lot of what we say about religion will come down to our own beliefs and biases. Someone who believes in the supernatural will say it has basis in reality while someone who doesn't will look for a mundane explanation for it. Our biases will even affect speculation on whether or not it will be replaced by something. I, for example, would say that religion would be replaced by the truth of God when people see God after death. But that is my own belief, isn't it?

This means that people cannot objectively judge religion. Only people.

dealing with it · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **dealing with it** on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:21 pm

Ask ten people the point of religion and get ten different answers. How can we come to consensus?

RjWaltz,

RjWaltz wrote:So, we humans placed a name to some sort of "creator" who looks out for us, and, in essence, gives us a reason to live. Which would you be most comfortable with, a chaotic random series of events until your unknown time of death, or a series of planned events by an unseen hand until your return to Heaven/ reincarnation / other form of afterlife?

Not all religions have a creator or watchful eye. Buddhism and Taoism are atheist religions.

almostinsane,

almostinsane wrote:This means that people cannot objectively judge religion. Only people.

It is easier to objectively judge religion if you look at unfamiliar ones. When I started to read the Tao te Ching, for example, I was like an alien looking at humanity. It didn't make sense from the Judeo-Christian mentality, and required a lot of thought to see myself as part of that humanity.

Anyway, the alien looking at civilization for redeeming qualities is, essentially, a modification of Deity. Would God appreciate religion?

cucumbersome · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **cucumbersome** on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:49 pm

dealing with it wrote:Would God appreciate religion?

If each and every prayer requires His attention, probably not. :)

I guess some gods would appreciate some religions. Especially the ones who want to be worshipped and are. On the other hand, I’m sure some gods, if they exist, would be horrified by what is done in their name.

Hyydra · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Hyydra** on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:46 pm

I definitely think of religion as man's greatest achievement, for I am a christian. I love god and I do believe in him, no matter what. The fact that some men believe in science after all the pieces of evidence of our religion. Including the rock Moses split to give his people water when leading them to freedom. I honestly do believe that science is just a sad misbilief. And although there are many examples of proof that science could be real as well, in the end it depends on what YOU believe.

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