Persona: Imagine

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:47 pm

Is it hypochondria if you hear something and start thinking it over, and it starts to sound plausible?
Because I can totally imagine microcamera's or something hidden in shoelace protectors. And now I can't get the thought out of my head. O_o

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:50 pm

Whee~! I just edited in quite a bit of info into Ivy's profile for no particular reason. XD

theloneliestmemory wrote:Is it hypochondria if you hear something and start thinking it over, and it starts to sound plausible?
Because I can totally imagine microcamera's or something hidden in shoelace protectors. And now I can't get the thought out of my head. O_o

No. If you had hypochondriasis, you’d be worried that that was a sign of a paranoid personality disorder. :P

Also, I forgot to respond to this topic [just 'cause I like blabbing about this stuff ;3]:

theloneliestmemory wrote:I think that Shadows are different in different manifestations. Avoiding spoilers for P3/P4, in P3, Persona were a product of a certain company, as opposed to the persona the are directly part of your unconsciousness, like P1, 2, or 4. Shadows in P3 and 4 are made of the same 'stuff' as Personae, but it's all subjective. They're directly linked to the collective unconsciousness in 1 and 2, and sort of in 4. It's a Jungian concept, and super interesting if you're into myth/psychology. Jung and Reich are always a good read. :3

My interpretation:
Evolving a persona in the games is comparable to the concept of Individuation. In analytical psychology, Individuation is the process through which a person becomes their "true self" by developing one's individual personality; the different experiences of a person's life and, with it, the different aspects and components of the immature psyche become integrated. It is a completely natural process necessary for the integration of the psyche to take place. Ionia's Arcana, Temperance, could be interpreted in this way. Basically, it's how we come to indentify our conscious as unique and not just part of the Collective Unconscious.

Shadows, of couse, are based on the Shadow archetype. There is a difference between "a Shadow" and "the Shadow." That is, to say, everyone has their own Shadow that is formed from repressed weakness, shortcomings, and instinct [In Jung's words: "The shadow personifies everything that the subject refuses to acknowledge about himself."] but there is also the Archetype of the Shadow in the Collective Unconscious. Jung also states "the Shadow is the first representative of the Totality" [where totality = full power of a persona] so, yes, in my interpretation Shadows are made of the same "stuff" as Personae, Jung calls it Libido. We, however, can call this stuff "Imagination" in the game for Jung states: "in spite of its function as a reservoir for human darkness -- or perhaps because of this -- the shadow is the seat of creativity." [This is also a great way to think of one of the interpretations of the Moon Arcana.]

How it relates to the games:
Individuation starts with a wounding of the Ego. [Death Arcana theme much?] I like P4 because they show this with the encounter with the shadow [why the boss battles are preceded with a "You're not me!"]. Upon the defeat of the boss [which symbolizes change within the persona user] they are able to ‘deal’ with the Shadow by proxy of a Persona. The evolution of Personae, however, is rather ironic to me, for it seems to be equivalent to Individuation, meaning that the Persona itself has been “unmasked” so to say and dissolved, along with the Shadow, in the Self. Thus, “the Self... embraces Ego-consciousness, Shadow, Anima/Animus, and Collective Unconscious in indeterminable extension. As a totality, the self is a coincidentia oppositorum; it is therefore bright and dark and yet neither."

Teal dear; Everything Lonely said was right. I just felt like flapping my gums. ^^

[EDIT] Big. Ass. Post. O_O;

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Fri Oct 15, 2010 6:39 pm

Hooray for infodumps and extra information in character profiles! ^^

No. If you had hypochondriasis, you’d be worried that that was a sign of a paranoid personality disorder. :P

Haha, and if I have paranoid personality disorder, I'd start to wonder if that didn't mean some prior event had started my ppd, eh? xD

I'm pretty psyched that you responded to that post, by the by. I'd kinda forgotten it- but psychobabble interests me immensely.

First of all - I'm extremely interested (and pleased, it always seemed like a perfect fit to me, imo) that you identify one facet of the Moon with the Shadow archetype, and indeed distinguish between the Shadow as archetype and individual reserve as well. i also like the subtle hint you gave (I think) about Ionia in there. But digressing - would you assume it's possible for those with an extremely non individualized-actualized psyche to contribute a great deal of their creative and mental stimulus to Shadow? To me, it always seemed that the nameless Shadow-type enemies had to come from somewhere, and where literally spawned from people with a strong attachment to an area, but a weak sense of self-identity.

On the subject of P4, that's precisely one of the reasons it appealed to me - i felt that the simple unmasking of the Persona wasn't a resolution of conflict. Just like in Persona 2, it was more the opening of a potential, and only character evolution and further acknowledgment could help it grow and evolve into it's totality. But this wasn't just an erasure of the character's 'bad' traits, but an examination of why they had them, and learning to live with them as opposed to pretending they didn't exist. A rare message, a really interesting one, and something I can tie in neatly with another Jung quote! [Alt name for this thread: I <3 Jung]

"Good does not become better by being exaggerated, but worse, and a small evil becomes a big one through being disregarded and repressed."

- Well, that's mostly it. Can't believe i was honestly on the right track about something, but trust me - i always enjoy a good flapping o' gums! :D The above post is just the right length!

But this one now, durr... probably could've been more concise... >> Edit - for some reason, this whole discussion made me think of Evangelion for some reason. Huh.

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Fri Oct 15, 2010 8:52 pm

Just 'cause you agree with me doesn't make you on the right track. I might be wrong for all we know. xp

"Everyone carries a shadow, and the less it is embodied in the individual's conscious life, the blacker and denser it is."
In my theory: the big ass Shadow bosses without associated individuals are the Archetypical manifest of the Shadow; the Nameless ones from random encounters are Shadows of normal individuals; and the Bosses that have associated individuals obviusly come from said individual [These people are the one's with Potential].

Shadows aren't necessarily powered by "Imagination." Jung said Shadows primarilly use projections to cheive it's objectives -- if it even has one. if these projections are unrecognized they cripple and isolate individuals by forming an ever thicker fog of illusion between the Ego and reality. In this case denial makes Shadows stronger. Thus; it could be said that the reason Random encounter get harder throughout the game because you are travelliing deeper into the shadow world where they are more strongly repressed. This actually represented in the games, be it by scaling Tartarus in P3 or the fact that the order of members whose personae awaken in P4 is basically in order of how big a secret is contained in their shadow [thus hidden "deeper].

Basically: the individual Shadows are a denial of the Shadow Archetype; Personae are the learning how to deal with the Shadow Archetype; and evolved Personae are the acceptance of the Shadow Archetype.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Fri Oct 15, 2010 10:03 pm

Hehe, a very valid point. ;P Luckily, I assume that I'm wrong about things most of the time; i meant more that I'm glad my thoughts about what you were thinking were on the right track. And using more track-related metaphors, train of thought derailed? xD

A counterpoint to your theory that the ultra-huge shadows are are points of the Shadow - would it also be possible that they represent another facet of the tarot cards, as well? i have a fascinating book called Jung and the Tarot which examines his theories and thoughts on the cards as well as some of his mysticism/logic behind it. It would make perfect sense for these Shadow's to not just be archetypical Shadows, but reflections through a mirror darkly of the traits the seeker finds in tarot cards. It would also explain why Shadows and Personae have 'classes'.

The danger with such an explanation though is that since a more repressed Shadow is going to be more powerful, what happens when a shadow is never released, or even revealed to it's individual. I like your reasoning for random encounters getting stronger throughout the game - also, though, I think that traveling deeper into the shadow realm implies a deeper journey into the unconcsious, as the two worlds are one and the same. Read - Teddie's world post p4 becoming the world of cheerful happiness; a reflection of a shadow's shadow, or the fact that a person without doubts to their own nature's inner world or 'Sea of consciousness' (can't remember if it was Freud who used that term, grrr) becomes tranquil. Just a thought, but think it's an interesting one nonetheless.

I have to go take care of my folks - my dad just fell and twisted his knee something awful, but this has been rad. Lemme see if i can hassle out some good food for thought before dashing off. If Shadow=Archetypical Shadow=Personae=EPersonae, then what happens to someone who is at an actualized, Nietzchean plateau who find themselves rocked by a traumatic event? Would they manifest an unusually strong Shadow related to their persona, or lose the ability to manifest?

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:02 pm

...I would kill you dead for that book.
Like, seriously. <3

On a less neurotic note: I had no idea Jung wrote anything about the Tarot. >>;

And I didn't say that a Shadow's power depended solely on how repressed it is. Also, your example of the Shadow being Revealed shows stength on the side of the individual as they are in control of the process [the Shadow doesn't find them, they find the Shadow]. Say we're talkin' 'bout Jekyll and Hyde: "it must be Jekyll, the conscious personality, who integrates the shadow...and not vice versa. Otherwise the conscious becomes the slave of the autonomous shadow" [Random thought: Would that, perhaps, be Apathy Syndrome, do you think?]

And yeah: I was meaning that the Shadow World was the Unconscious. Was that not made clear? Upon Individuation, the Unconscious changes because there technically is no more Unconscious. It has been dissolved into the Self at that point.

*om-noms-noms the brainfood* You mean like an Übermensch? Theoretically, they would already accept the event before it'd "become" a Shadow. It'd be like, accepting the synchronicity of it, or summat.

And bummer on your dad, dude.

And now I am out of wakeful fuel for today to discuss any further.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 3:57 am

Neuroses, or pure win? I'd fight back with all my life to defend it, uguu~ although it isn't written by Jung, but rather about him. Actually, during his East-Asia/Tibetan research, he wrote a lot about various mythological stuff. I don't remember if it's in Man and his Symbols or not that he talks about Tarot being like an Ouroborous of fate but I *know* he talks about it several times in his letters to Herman Hesse. The book itself is very interesting, and worth a look. Yep, love having it! It's a shame that it's so rare, fwahahaha!

But despite your tempting proposition of death in trade for it... I actually think I have an extra copy floating around, possibly even two - one was a gift to a friend who turned out to be... not so friendly, heh. And anyway, even if my memory is just failing though, you can see the cover here. Although my usual spiel of 'frequent occult and anarchist book stores hurr' might help, in this day and age a local Waldenbooks or something'd probably have it. ^^; Let me know if you find it, I'd love to hear someone else's thoughts on it.

Back on subject tho- i'd figure that Shadows are never drawn completely from the individual, but shaped by them, if that makes sense. The most unique Shadows are of course drawn from the unconsciousness of one person, but the metaphysical 'fuel' of them? Probably comes from the cast off frustration and apathy of many unactualized and dispossessed people. As for the example ya just gave - ! that's a freakin' awesome train of thought. shit, though - playing through p3 with that in mind is going to totally give me nightmares if I overanalyze it too much. Ah, well. More insomnia is always... uh, something? {also random thought - If i recall we still haven't seen an autonomous shadow outside 'the Shadow' as it were. Is even a fully in control Shadow limited to areas where people'd believe in it or the realms of the unconscious? and if the latter - what happens when a Shadow becomes freed of an individual?}

Oh, no - it was clear, but I like to repeat things and ask often-pointless questions as part of my thought process. Blame my talkiness and interest in problems, questions, and the universe in general! xD I love the idea of the Unconsciousness being dissolved into the Self though - it reminds me of harmony, or Szygy (I know i'm not spelling that right, it's 12:51 and this black coffee tastes faintly of hazelnut(+) but not coffee(-) ). which makes me wanna bring up anima/animus again and thoughts about them in relation to naotolol, but i digress! like for the nth time!

*brainfood is delicious! would totally subsist on it alone if given the chance* Exactly like an Übermensch! Did you get a chance to play Strange Journey? It's a MegaTen game, but even if that's not your cup of tea or beverage o' choice is soooo worth playing; the concept as explored as Übergestalt (a combination of two very different things, but it makes sense in context). But yeah, such a person would essentially *be* their persona. Like, in universe - someone who could go toe-to-toe with Shadows without a Persona, invoker, etc.

Thanks for the bummer, heh - s'awright. gives me an excuse to cook and clean and do things he'd complain about me doing if he was up and about. as long as he doesn't hurt himself more, everything is - well, looking up. a good conversation does a loot for my mood. so thanks for that.

same here though. i wanted to type something insightful and cool for next time, but think i've probably riddled the thing with spelling mistakes, bwahaha! Later though. this topic deserves plumbing.

Zetta · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Zetta** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 4:49 pm

Damn. I haven't had the time to keep up with this until this week, but it's already gone by too far, I think. I have no idea what's going on, but I plan on popping back in.

Anyone want to fill me in?

VoidSun · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **VoidSun** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 6:05 pm

It´s pretty much the same as the last time I gave a resume.

VoidSun wrote:Dimitri appears and starts his speech of how the life will change to the persona users, warning them of some unknown shadows and that they were chosen for a reason. The power to summon and to the determination to manipulate the Imagination were also mentioned. All of this comes and goes between a conversation between him and Xavier. Ah yes also Jordan actually tries to act defiant when he is overmatched before doing anything, in this action we can see that Dimitri is no normal fella at all, after this a question came... what each person saw in before entering the room.

Conversation continues and this time some persona users (Dziva and Jehanne respectively) gave their opinions about the situation and Xavier snap into heroic mode to accept the "travel" into becoming a persona user, my character was the second one to do the same. Dimitri introduces the band that is playing the background single and creates a circle to let the chosen return home.

--FlashBack mode--
We can see the so called troubled girl Tsuki in the shadow olympus with the new team Strega starting their moves. Apparently the seniors´s teacher is gonna snap.
--/Flashback mode--

Sadly the important things are kinda lost since the tab doesn´t go back (sucks) the new things to add are:

The persona team is doing a meeting in the school cafeteria starting the introductions and starting the slow process of knowing each other while solving the whole situation.

The new Strega successfully did... their mind corruption thing and the senior teacher is almost ready to become a "dark zombie" (term used since I don´t know how the fella will act as an "evil" or "idiotic" minion).

Lonely and Jehanne way to go on discussing the mind process for the persona representation.

On a last note Aigis rocks.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:28 pm

Nice summary! :o And thanks for the props on the discussion. It's the stuff I live for. Good conversation is way too hard to find - and thinking about Shadows seriously is always an interesting mental jaunt. To say nothing about Jung! :D Hopefully, we'll get more going today; I'd had an interesting dream about falling down a well, landing in a picnic area, and having a good discussion with a camper about playing the violin while this psycho-killer(i assume? he had a knife and was whistling creepily.) lurked in the background (for some reason, we just kind of ignored him until near the end - when we both jumped him. it was kinda righteous.). This has nothing to do with the above topic, but as food for thoughts - what're folks interesting dreams recently?

and adding to that last note - yes, yes she does! at first i didn't like her voice actor at all, sounding so stiff, but not even mechanical to my ears. then - as her character grew and changed - well now, she's actually one of my favorite characters. not just because I'm interested in artificial intelligence, but because of her plot growth and and inner strength + what I think of as great voice acting. i wince every time i hear that 'I'm... sorry' power down clip. T_T

Zetta · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Zetta** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:37 pm

One more question: How many days has it been since the whole initial dream sequence at the end of the first day?

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 7:41 pm

It's the first day of school since the "Dream".

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:11 pm

Since I don't seem to have the ability to go back into the past anymore in posts, I'm going to assume the "Dream" was the main event that introduced the group to the Shadow and awoke their personae, met Igor (or whatever the Velvet Room appeared to be to them) - was it a group dream, or an individual event?

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:22 pm

It wasn't an actually dream, obviously.

Two parts:
[1] Personal Sea of Soul: each person gets first contact with their Shadow self [but doesn't overcome them] and then forms contract with their personae. This was seperate for each individual.
[2] Velvet Room: The Persona users end up in the Velvet Room. Belladona and Nameless are there [I assume that is who they are], but Igor is absent and Demetri [an original charcter of Astro, I assume] is there in his stead. This is a group event.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:30 pm

Much obliged!

I'd make the obligatory comment about it being impossible to tell if life is a dream or a reality, vis a vis the butterfly/person argument, but it's stale and an obvious retort! :p Besides, I think i think about dreams too much. Logical loops and all that. Soooo - the players here actually make a contract with their Shadow self, consciously or subconsciously - that's interesting. I like that it was individualized too, it means IC knowledge is limited.

More importantly - extremely interesting that Igor is gone, although it's good to see Belladona and Nameless back around. I missed'em. I'm guessing the Demon Artist is gone, though? Hehehe!

If the first action takes place in the Sea, however, it sounds like this could be Philemon's doing - although I like the thought that the act of discovering one's Persona; i.e potential can happen to anyone, given time and introspection. Edit: that seems less prevelent in p3 and 4, although I guess it must have happened to Ad- er, that one antagonist at some point?

Jehanne · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Jehanne** on Sat Oct 16, 2010 10:56 pm

I'm too tired to talk about Persona without using Latent terms, thus saying it's not a dream. I think Philemon himself is supposed to reference to Zhuangzi, so yeah...

I'm pretty sure you got it, but to avoid the problems if you don't, there was no explicit contract, and it was made with the Persona not the Shadow. [again, this is Manifest terms 'cause I'm lazy]

Each player is also going to encounter their Shadow a second time, this time to actually face their weakness and earn their evolved Personsae.

Demitri also seems to be Igor's assistant here, à la Elizabeth/Margaret/Theo. And the Demon Artist could be there attending the bar, but I'm not sure at all about that [there is someone there]. Everything in the velvet room was GM territory, I think, so heck if I know what's in store.

I also forgot to mention earlier that yes: I own Strange Journey.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:29 am

We need to do this at some time when it's not painstakingly late. Unfortunately, it get's dark really early in my neck of Alaska right now, and honestly I tend to feel like hibernating most of the time. >_> Not to stop the conversation though! I'd always wondered if Philemon was supposed to reference Zhuangzi, he'd always seemed to me to be an amalgam of several of Jung's... muses? I can't think of a better word right now. Contempraries would be what I'm tempted to use, despite it not working at all. I think you get my meaning, tho- I'll edit this when my brain is at full steam.

Question/thought again, sorry for shootin' all these out there - but if the contract was Manifest, then it was based on hopes and wish fulfillment, if i recall. But since there was no explicit contract - actually, wait answered my own question, I think. It seems like that'd imply that the Velvet room exists 'between' states, which'd line it up perfectly with heightened awareness, REM sleep et all.

And speaking of that Velvet Room, sounds like a wonderful mystery. Like that bar in Paprika, we'll just have to let it come and roll with it, like an especially good lucid dream where you don't want to mess around with things too much, haha. Glad to hear you own Strange Journey, though! Although definitely more of a Megaten game, I looove Megaten for delving more into the theological/mythological side of things. And they're always fun to play! Unfortunately, I'm too tired to refer to *anything* in terms that aren't vaguely Manifest derpherp!... I still have to wash the dishes, do laundry, and then get ready for another (likely) fruitless interview tomorrow. The reason I asked if you had Strange Journey though is because I was wondering if you found any parallels between Gnosticism and EarlyFreud/All o'Jung? Not that SJ is a prime source for Gnostic stuffs, but it's always interesting, especially the Bogomils and Cathars. Pity it's not more popular now, hehe.

Edit: Gah, thought I'd posted this like an hour ago. I hate losing track of time. My brain is like a freakin' broccoli sieve. If anyone invents a machine to improve recollection without copious amounts of post-it notes, I'd make you the best damn blueberry cobbler of all time every day of your life. Promise! ;D

Astro_B0Y · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Astro_B0Y** on Sun Oct 17, 2010 12:37 pm

Whoa, I missed some serious intellectual conversation *gawks*. Not like I could add much to it anyway XP

First off let me knock out my GM duties...

VoidSun wrote:It´s pretty much the same as the last time I gave a resume.

Sadly the important things are kinda lost since the tab doesn´t go back (sucks) the new things to add are:

The persona team is doing a meeting in the school cafeteria starting the introductions and starting the slow process of knowing each other while solving the whole situation.

The new Strega successfully did... their mind corruption thing and the senior teacher is almost ready to become a "dark zombie" (term used since I don´t know how the fella will act as an "evil" or "idiotic" minion).

Lonely and Jehanne way to go on discussing the mind process for the persona representation.

On a last note Aigis rocks.

Thanks for taking care of that Void!

Just to add to that, even though it was all pretty concise, it should be noted that Volt (the teacher) already had a pretty long list of people to kill. Meaning he was already one crazy mother before the mind corruption.

Now on to the chat about the Velvet Room.

I had to bring Belladonna and Nameless back...they were to sweet to leave behind. And they add to the whole night club vision of the Velvet Room I wanted. As for Demon Artist...ehh, I'm not to sure on how to throw him in, sense nobody (at least nobody 'playable') will have multiple Personae. Ah a cameo is always fun though, maybe he could be drinking at the bar or something. The bartender there is just a random guy, I can't even remember his name...

As for Demetri he's original, yes. He is technically like Elizabeth and the others, but if they were 'ranked' he would be a bit higher, since he's allowed to actually live in the conscious world. That'll be expanded in RP though.

Did I hear somebody mention Paprika? I LOVE that movie. Even though I wasn't able to see the very end....thanks to my PS3 being a numb nuts during the streaming.

theloneliestmemory · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **theloneliestmemory** on Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:59 pm

Haha, dunno if anything I said is actually on the intellectual side of things - I've kinda been rambling as my neurons spark and sorting my thoughts out later. xD That being said, I really enjoy it and if anything i said has stirred up some interesting thoughts - MISSION COMPLETE! :D

Glad to hear that Belladonna and Nameless are back to stay, because they're awesome, and a Night-club Velvet room is fantastic. Demon Artist doesn't need to be anywhere or anything; just given how he's a tribute to Kaneko, he's pretty awesome himself. Thanks for clearing stuff up about the Velvet Room and Demetri though; as a new face, it's really helpful to me. And first Psychonauts, now Paprika? Excellent taste! :) I'm a huge fan of Satoshi Kon's work, he died way too young. The ending is a shocker, but really good imo. It's worth finishing up sometime if you get the chance; one of my favorite movies regarding dreams.

VoidSun · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **VoidSun** on Sun Oct 17, 2010 4:37 pm

Sette´s part fell rushed? Actually I pushed the "send my post is awesome!" button before finishing it... Don´t ask me why cause I don´t know why it happened XD... I had to edit the post quickly so the girl would be in the right place with the others before all read the post. Paprika rocks I had the opportunity of watching it in the original format and I was pleased when i heard Megumi Hayashibara´s voice I´m her fan since... a lot of time. After all she is the Seiyū of Rei Ayanami, Lina Inverse, Ai Haibara, Jessie of Pokemon, Faye Valentine ... (lists goes to infinite as Void´s shows that his addiction to anime is as big as his addiction to the video games...) So yeah. XD

I just saw a movie yesterday and I could swear I saw a Xavier in it, it was impressive the movie shows what PROBABLY will happen with him in the rp. If it happens I will say which movie it is... :P (jojojo)

Last note. Forget Aigis rocks... she owns the game! "I wish to be always be by his side"

Persona: Imagine

a part of “Persona: Imagine”, a fictional universe by Astro_B0Y.

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