Abortion.

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 4:27 pm

BreathesSalty wrote:It's true, for the most part, what you say about adoption agencies (they rarely do "surprise checks," and usually only when they're weary of the family. One of my cafateria ladies' husbands works at an adoption agency.) And perhaps I should have been more clear. When I get all riled up, I tend to focus more on tiny details rather than the over all picture.
Out of all of the adopted children I've met, I can name only one who grew into a sensible human being. For whatever reason, adoption leaves an imprint on the child. Every statistic will show that an adopted child will be more susceptible to mental and social issues. True, I'm not a scientist, and I haven't conducted any experiments to prove this. It's just what I've gathered from research and personal experiences.
Not all STDs are fatal. The majority of them are just nuisances, such as herpes, gonorrhea, or warts. Again, I should have specified.
The harm I've mentioned with the psychiatric problems.
Howeverrrr... you did not answer my question, sir. :X

Uhm, which question would that be exactly?

And yes, I have a few friends who were adopted and they are a bit.. weird. However, if they could choose between the life they lead now and the alternative -not existing at all- I'm pretty sure they'd start appreciating things a bit more. Kids today, whether they have a totally functional family or an adopted one, are a lot more susceptible to emotional stress, mental trauma, etc, so even then the adopted children wouldn't be very out of the ordinary, considering.

And when I said fatal, I was thinking of AIDs, and then I remembered that there's no cure for that. Heh, my mistake ^^;

Athias · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Athias** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:18 pm

Does anyone else feel that this argument is like two people ramming into opposite sides of a brick wall, each one hoping they'll somehow be able to smash it before the other person does?

A few things related to this argument: (If this is too innapropriate, which it may be, I will remove it at request)
What if birth control fails? I'm not even talking about intercourse between nonmarried couples, I mean when between a married couple who already has a few kids of their own. What if said couple is poor? Babies are expensive, not just to raise, but to have, and the cost could cause huge problems. Abortions, on the other hand, are much cheaper and easier on the family.

Sperm is alive. Therefore, normal consensual intercourse kills thousands and thousands upon living beings. Sperm aren't quite as advanced as fetuses, but may actually be considered less braindead. So while the to-be aborted fetus would be slightly more formed, both kill potential humans, abortion just kills one. In addition, rather than dieing for anything other than pleasure, the fetus can at least contribute to potentially life-saving sciences like stem-cell research.

And yes, abortion is always an option. But that can still have psycological affects if the baby isn't adopted right away. Also, could someone give me a link that gives the reader a basic idea about the current amount of funding orphanages recieve and how much a problem (if any) over-crowding may pose for some?

BreathesSalty · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **BreathesSalty** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:21 pm

I did sort of throw out numerous questions there. Most of them were just helping my stream of consciousness. But initially, my main question was how your options were less selfish, just so I can try and get a better handle of your thinking. After all, you seem rather passionate about it, which is wonderful. I'm just an ungodly critical thinker. It's a bit of a curse. x__x

Athias · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Athias** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:32 pm

BreathesSalty wrote:I did sort of throw out numerous questions there. Most of them were just helping my stream of consciousness. But initially, my main question was how your options were less selfish, just so I can try and get a better handle of your thinking. After all, you seem rather passionate about it, which is wonderful. I'm just an ungodly critical thinker. It's a bit of a curse. x__x

Abortion is a very difficult issue, there is no absolute right or absolute wrong, in fact there are few people who can even pretend there is. Both sides risk seeming incredibly offensive to the other, the pro-abortion people seem like they disregard the actual fetus, while the anti-abortion people risk disregarding the parents, regardless of situation (rape, etc.). But it's simply not an issue you can be critical of and get away without getting a few people at your throat.

Arietraekos · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Arietraekos** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 6:56 pm

Sex, Pregnancies, abortions, Adoption, Std's....it's all not fair....ok now i know i'm a guy and trust me....i'm not the kind to point at a person and say "Your a terrible person for doing that....on the other hand your not going to hear me say "Ok your a good person hope you live a super awesome life".

Ok Now ladies plz you can say what you want but here's HONESTLY what i think.....

The whole act of mating really isn't fair at times... The man doesn't get pregnant, He doesn't go through labor, he doesn't have to go into the operating room to have the child. No he just Get's the woman pregnant and basically "Supports" her through it all...

On the other hand...men don't have the pain of Pregnancy...we have the guilt...If a man gets a woman pregnant when it's not a rape, he was wearing a condom, the whole 9 yards. Do you know how bad we feel? I mean i know women feel terrible too...but men caused it...it can make a man want to kill himself (it happened to a friend of my mother....got a girl pregnant, Found by his MOM a day later, in HIS room with blood every where and a 30-30 laying on the floor) And another thing....women feel pain during there time of Pregnancy and times of a Period....but do any women know how it feels to be Kicked in the balls with a metal boot? Trust me that hurts.... like hell.... and it can happen alot....add the pain up and it could equal....I said COULD... Now i probably have everyone wanting to kill me now... but ....is it really fair? is it equal? Honestly i think it's not....Women feel physical pain....Men feel emotional pain...which is worse?

Ok I needed to get that off my chest....i'm sorry if anyone's offended but it's truly what i think.....and again SEX IS NOT FAIR...............most times

Alacer Phasmatis · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Alacer Phasmatis** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 7:09 pm

There is little doubt that there are perfectly decent guys who beat themselves up endlessly about having had done such a thing, because they too feel parental attachments to their offspring-- paternal protectiveness can be just as great as maternal. That said, there are also lowlifes who'll let the woman fend for herself. Life can be harsh.

iamsheena · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **iamsheena** on Fri Aug 29, 2008 11:57 pm

Athias wrote:Does anyone else feel that this argument is like two people ramming into opposite sides of a brick wall, each one hoping they'll somehow be able to smash it before the other person does?

I do agree about the brick wall :] And it's pretty much like a never ending circle; the abortion debate always ends and begins in the same place with no one having any mind change and the same arguments coming up continuously.

I believe that an abortion is one's choice. I do know that there is an option of adoption once the child is born but sometimes that option isn't available. You should not be able to say that abortion is wrong and immoral when you have not been through anything of the sort; if you have, then maybe you can but even then that's still your opinion and shouldn't influence anybody else's decisions.

I do know a person who had an abortion when becoming pregnant at the age of about 15 but when she got pregnant again (obviously her own fault), she kept the baby because she felt guilty from the first time (the baby is adorable btw). The point is, you never really know what you'd do until you're in the position.

I, myself, have no idea what I'd do if I were to become pregnant. On one hand, I feel that my family may disown me (they're loving, but, I think, incredibly harsh) and so I would get an abortion but on the other hand, the incredible guilt that I would have to live with every day of my life would probably be unbearable because I would never have known what that child could have been (whether good or bad).

This a difficult, almost pointless, argument that goes nowhere but still continues endlessly and kind of gets me a little angry (especially when people put down other's opinons).

My Oopinion: Abortions are not bad.

I know there wasn't much material involved in this little post, but I is tired.

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:08 am

BreathesSalty wrote:I did sort of throw out numerous questions there. Most of them were just helping my stream of consciousness. But initially, my main question was how your options were less selfish, just so I can try and get a better handle of your thinking. After all, you seem rather passionate about it, which is wonderful. I'm just an ungodly critical thinker. It's a bit of a curse. x__x

Uhm, well I believe adoption would be less selfish because at least the child has a chance at life. I know that an aborted fetus wouldn't know the difference, so I suppose it's just the thought that counts.

It is really upsetting to hear about how many women actually do get abortions, because we'll never know what that child could have been. Why would you want to waste $400+ on an abortion when you can just leave the baby at a hospital/station free of charge? You'd be sparing a life and your wallet.

BreathesSalty · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **BreathesSalty** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:23 pm

Would the guilt of simply abandoning your baby be any less than aborting it?
I'm not making judgments, I'm only trying to keep the discussion going on a deeper level than "I think it's wrong, I think it's ok." After all, like I said, I would never even consider abortion. But at the same time, I can support women who do.
Oh, the tangled webs we weave.

Alacer Phasmatis · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Alacer Phasmatis** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:28 pm

It really depends on the woman and her degree of stress/negative feelings in general. If you dumb it down, the reaction would be comparable to a lioness abandoning her cubs-- do you find the comparison harsh? Well, we don't know how upsetting it may be for the lioness in question. Likewise for mothers.

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:30 pm

Yes, I think so. Because you'd know that the baby will be going to a decent home and will lead a fairly happy life. I wouldn't considering it 'abandoning'; more along the lines of giving it a fighting chance at the world. Any mother who has less than decent living conditions would be glad to give their baby to a good, wealthy family -- she may feel a bit guilty, but I'm sure it is more appealing than the thought of sucking it out of her womb (or whatever it is they do).

St.Jimmy · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **St.Jimmy** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 2:56 pm

I'm just going to throw a little anecdote in here. xD

I have known a certain girl for ten years, since I was five years old. We've never been particularly good friends, but I met her in primary school and I'm in the same group as her in my secondary school. When I say that we're not close, I don't mean that we argue. I just mean that I don't know her very well.

However, at a residential visit with the school four years ago, she took her diary and everyone found out she was adopted. The more unsavoury characters at my school tortured her for the entire week. Since then, she's never lived that down. She had written in her diary that she hated her real mum and her adoptive mum. The girl later defied her adoptive parents in every way she could think of. They said she wasn't allowed serious boyfriends; she had a very large amount of serious boyfriends at a young age. They grounded her; she climbed out of the roof and got into a teenage nightclub where she had a queue of boys making fun of her behind her back but all kissing her because she let them do whatever they wanted. She has terrible grades at school and doesn't care. Recently, she's lapsed into a total neglect of her personal hygiene, to the point where even polite, kind people don't want to sit next to her.

Her adoptive parents are religious, they care about her, they support her through everything and they adopted another girl as well when the girl I'm talking about was around five. If adoption was a solution, this should be a normal family with two kids. The parents even supported her through a massive operation which involved her losing the fingers on her right hand and having them replaced with two of her toes. That was when she was much, much younger.

And yet this girl still hates both them and her original mother, is hugely unhappy, and does everything in her power to defy them.

That's why I think that we can't look at adoption as a golden solution. My aunt and uncle are foster carers and they often have many extremely unhappy young children with nowhere to go in their house. I think that in some scenarios, abortion is acceptable. It may not be a good solution, and I would never ever abort a child myself, but I can support women who do have abortions.

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:10 pm

Ick. Quit posting so much, St.Jimmy; Billy Joe is hot and it distracts me so ><

But really, how often do things like that happen? I have plenty of friends who were adopted and they're getting on just fine. It depends on the child and how they were raised. I'm sure if the parents explained that the child's birth mother hadn't enough wealth to support them, they'd understand and likely be a bit more grateful.

Anywho, I believe that I've already stated (a number of times) that in certain cases, abortion is all right.

St.Jimmy · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **St.Jimmy** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:13 pm

Sorry, there's just so many long posts I probably missed vital points in people's arguments. >.<

And I know it

.. It is a rather distracting picture because he looks amazing xD

Ryand-Smith · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Ryand-Smith** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 3:51 pm

St. Jimmy, as much as I hate to support ancodotes in proper written debate, I will have to back you up on this case. I feel that the problem is when people offer up Adoption as a universal example (rule of debate, a universal solution is invalidated by just one case of it being incorrect), these stories are the nessary tools that are needed to break down these arguments.

I also would like to say that to anyone who wishes to force all women to bear children, I hope that you are either ingorant, men (no offense to my fellow males, but we can understand, but not KNOW in this case) or trolling. There is a syndrome called

WARNING THE FOLLOWING TEXT CONTAINS GRAPHIC DESCRIPTIONS OF POSSIBLE SYNDROMES. READER DISCRESSION IS ADVISED.

Vaganal Prolapse. For those who are ingorant of prolapse, this is the generic term for when an internal organ collapses out of its cavity, such as a hernia. Howver, in this case, after a baby is born, the uterus may collapse outside of the woman's body, prodcuing a mental tramua, as well as a physical trama to her.

This, in addation to the possible risks of bearing a child, the stress on her body, the forced hormonal changes, the lack of vitimans due to the fetus's needs, the possible death due to malnutrition (this is not just a third world problem), all show to me, that the possible risks of birthing a child, with resources running low, and Global Warming being a huge issue, are all proof that banning Abortion is a foolhardy reactonary decision at best, and at worst, a mysongenic hallmark to the darkest days in the history of mankind.

On the issue of Male Rights, I am quite strong. The Male does not bear the child for 9+/- months, he does not get a choice either way. That way, it prevents the classic "oh just have an abortion" and yet, it does not force the woman to bear a child he is not ready for.

Omnistrife · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Omnistrife** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:21 pm

Cloaked_Schemer wrote:
BreathesSalty wrote:I did sort of throw out numerous questions there. Most of them were just helping my stream of consciousness. But initially, my main question was how your options were less selfish, just so I can try and get a better handle of your thinking. After all, you seem rather passionate about it, which is wonderful. I'm just an ungodly critical thinker. It's a bit of a curse. x__x

Uhm, well I believe adoption would be less selfish because at least the child has a chance at life. I know that an aborted fetus wouldn't know the difference, so I suppose it's just the thought that counts.

It is really upsetting to hear about how many women actually do get abortions, because we'll never know what that child could have been. Why would you want to waste $400+ on an abortion when you can just leave the baby at a hospital/station free of charge? You'd be sparing a life and your wallet.

Sparing your Wallet?? That was one of the most painful things I've read. All the money in the world is worth less then a baby. Isn't that what life is about? Living for family?

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 4:43 pm

Omnistrife wrote:Sparing your Wallet?? That was one of the most painful things I've read. All the money in the world is worth less then a baby. Isn't that what life is about? Living for family?

o.0 I meant that it isn't worth it to take an innocent life and shell out the money that you really don't have anyway. I'm not comparing the worth of babies and money.

Omnistrife · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Omnistrife** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:05 pm

Regardless, don't get into Money at all.

Cloaked_Schemer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Cloaked_Schemer** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:08 pm

*shrugs* It's just another of the many benefits of actually having the child rather than aborting it.

People have already stated that some women can't afford to take care of their children and that is why they abort it. But I figure, if they can afford to pay $400+ dollars to kill the damn thing, they can sure as hell afford to have it and leave it at some hospital. It's more than a valid reason.

Gabriel_Whist · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Gabriel_Whist** on Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:16 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJEw_8XmruE

That is all.

Abortion.

a topic in Discussion & Debate, a part of the RPG forum.

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