It’s not easy being faithless.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:54 pm

I’m an atheist, as I’m sure pretty much everyone in the D&D board knows this means I don’t believe there is any evidence of a God or Supernatural guiding force in the world. People often ask me what i get out of my faith and then I’m forced to explain that it’s not a faith. Being an Atheist, to me at least, means I realised the religion I had been born into didn’t have any satisfying answers so I started looking to other religions.

No luck there as it all seemed like nonsense to me. So I decided I’d believe in what’s provable and scientific. Everything else is just fiction or wishful thinking to me.

Then I stopped thinking about religion or Atheism and just tried to live my life as well as I could. Most atheists don’t wear it as a badge of honour it’s just part of who you are.

Anyway we’ve had a pretty crappy time in our family for deaths with both my Grandfather and uncle going in the same year.

The weird thing to come out of it was my Grandmother has been an in closet Atheist for decades but that’s a story for another time. The death of my Grandfather was the greatest test of my Atheism I’ve ever experienced because there has never been a man more deserving of paradise or heaven than him. Still the thought fo him going there never crossed my mind. Instead I felt guilt, because I was away with work while he was dying, along with the immense sene of loss that comes from a loved one dying. I never thought of him in an afterlife.

That’s when I realised I really don’t believe, before it had all been academic but when it’s made flesh and blood you find out what you really believe.

Less than a year later my uncle died from a long illness. Unfortunately this time I was around and got to see exactly how cancer can eat a person away to a nub. On a side note if someone you love smokes or if you smoke, do everything you can break that habit. It’s not a good death.

The point of this post is a discussion I had with one of my cousins whose father was the uncle who died.

She basically asked me “Where’s my dad now?”

I should explain my cousin is a Christian and the question was asked few weeks after the funeral. While I’m pretty firm in my lack of faith I’m not vocal about it. I don’t care if you believe in whatever so long as it doesn’t impact on my life. If you ask me what I believe I’ll tell you but I’m not going to stop people in the street. Bottom line is my cousin was assuming I was also a Christian.

I had no idea how to respond.

I knew what I believed which was he was nowhere but I couldn’t say that so I gave the cop out answer of “He’s at peace.”
While I’m an Atheist, I’m not about to tell my bereaved cousin I think her Dad is gone forever.

This is my first question for any fellow atheists out there. Has your Atheism ever placed you in situations like the one above where you’ve had to compromise your beliefs as it offers no comfort to others?

I’d like to end on a positive note though.

My Atheism isn’t something I normally think about a lot but it does affect my thinking. I’m often aware that every second is bringing me closer to my own death. This often forces me to ensure I use my time in ways that are interesting to me and will help me be comfortable and happy later in life.

I feel this is a strength of Atheism. I don’t believe a quick pray to God will save me from trouble which means only I can do it. This thought makes me responsible and in a way I take strength from it. It also means prayers or Gods will not help others who are in need. This thought makes me charitable. I'm not saying those who do believe are deficient in these respects I’m just saying these are things I take from my lack of belief.

This leads into my second question which is how has Atheism made you a better person?

Being sceptical unfortunately does not give us much comfort and it’s not supposed to. Often I find myself cringing at things people believe but because they make the person happy I bite my tongue. I guess I want to know if anybody else is faced this dilemma.

I'm still worried people will think this depressing so here's Faithless the band.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:10 pm

I do not mind you being atheist as long as you do not define your life on it. There is more to life than faith or faithlessness. On matters like death it comes out similar to "they just don't exist anymore" with me, as a body returns to the earth and the soul aka the consciousness is of unknown whereabouts. As an agnostic animist, I do not know for sure what happens after death and rather not assume anything. I actually never think about it. If someone dies who is close to me, they live on in my memories.

By the way, prayer seriously does not help and even though I believe gods are between non-existent and existent, I see them solely as forces of nature that act arbitrarily. I know you do not agree with me but it is just my stance on the situation since I have seen more than five people pass in the past two years. Four deaths were rather natural while a teacher of mine choked to death on a peach stone.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:16 pm

Damn looks like the spammer got deleted before I got a chance to comment. Those folks crack me up.

Anii. I know we don't see eye to eye on seemingly anything and before we go any further lets agree to keep it civil.

I agree with the "they don't exist anymore" thing but its really hard to so say that to a bereaved person, in fact it's something I could not do when placed in that situation.

I also agree that the dead live on our memories of them and in the good they've done in the world.

My Athiesm dosen't define my life like I said above once I arrived at the conclusion I don't believe I kind of stopped caring about religion unless confronted by it in a way I felt negatively impacted my life. In fact that might be part of the problem. I was confronted with a situation where someone wanted comfort and my Athiesm was unable to accommodate them so I compromised my beief and gave them a nonsense answer. I guess that's becuase I value the feelings of others over my own beliefs.

As for prayer I agree that it does not help with problems but some people honestly believe that god can get them out of jams. I was trying illustrate that athiests and agnostics are compelled to take more responsibility as they don't think they will helped by God or whatever. Here's a far more articulate real life example of what I'm getting at. the relevant part beings at 3:18. I'd recommend watching the movie or reading the book Touching the Void by Joe Simpson anyway.

To be clear I'm not looking to discuss the merits of other religious beliefs I just want to hear from athiests and agnostics who might have faced issues like the one above as well as times when being faithless gave them strength.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:44 pm

If you want to hear from agnostics then you are talking to one. Agnosticism isnt sortable into a group like atheism or theism. There are agnostic atheists and agnostic theists just as there are gnostic atheists and gnostic theists. Agnosticism just defines people who say we cant know for sure while gnostics feel sure that they know the truth. i am an agnostic "theist". The theist is in "" because that it is rather an insecure thing to exactly call me a theist as I would rather refer to animism. Yet I understand that you might feel attacked when confronted about beliefs since many become hostile on this topic as they feel discrimination for thinking differently. I try my best to not offend anybodys beliefs or non-beliefs but I feel free to criticize these if the people become to pushy about it.

And about prayer, I see it as an instrument of people who believe in absolute powers or almighty presences to neglect their own responsibility. I constantly have to deal with these kinds of people due to one such case being a female coworker of mine being pushy with her beliefs and eventually getting in trouble due to religious discrimination. By the way, she is one of those born-again christian who has no clue about the world around her. She even thinks I gave her the gypsy curse since I am part Sinti.

Yet in family losses it is just best to comfort loved ones.

starkandskinny · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **starkandskinny** on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:47 pm

Being an Israeli Atheist isn't really an easy task. My parents are atheists and therefor so are my little brother and I - all my friends are atheists, or at least what we call 'traditional Jews' - meaning they believe in some vague concept of God and keep whichever traditions they find appropriate\relevant to their lives (an easier way to explain it might be calling them 'Jewish Agnostics'); but the point is most of my close friends and loved ones aren't too big on any form of religion.

Living where I live (not only in Israel - but specifically in Jerusalem, ironically) and being of the ancestry I am, I could be considered as nothing but Jewish. Aside from one grandfather (which doesn't count in Judaism anyway) I come from a Jewish descent. What a lot of people - Israeli or otherwise - seem to fail to understand, though, is that being of the Jewish people does not mean I believe in the Jewish religion - or any other religion, for that matter. It means I share a history with the Jewish nation - a history I respect and cherish, but that doesn't mean I automatically believe in anything. We have big family dinners during the Jewish holidays, but we don't celebrate them in any of the religious ceremonies - we don't even read the Hagada in Passover. I don't fast in Yom Kippur, and I don't attend the synagogue, ever.

Yet, I have to bend my faith (or lack of thereof) every single day because unfortunately, religion still has a tight grip of our government. We don't have civilian marriage - you have to be wed by a rabbi, and get divorced in the rabbinate - which is, by the way, a very humiliating ceremony. You could go abroad and get a civil marriage there, but, depending on the country, Israel might not recognize that as an actual marriage when you return.
We don't have public transportation on Saturday. There are neighborhoods in Jerusalem I can't walk into in my everyday clothing, or I will, in all seriousness, get beaten - even to death. A lot of my (and everybody else's) tax money goes to feed and educate religious Jews who do nothing for our country - they don't work, they don't pay taxes, they don't go to school (they go to Yeshivas where they study the bible, instead of what you would study in a regular school), they have shitloads of children without any regards to the fact that they have no means of taking care of said children, and god forbid they serve the military (which I proudly did for two years of my life), even though we have compulsory enlistment. You get exempted for being religious. It goes into such tiny aspects of your life that even half the microwaves in the university I go to are marked 'kosher', which means 90% of the students can't use them, for the sake of the 10% who actually give a flying fuck.

Sorry this sort of turned into a big rant, but... yeah. Most of the time I just let it slide and don't pay much attention to it - but when walking down one of the main streets in Jerusalem (meaning not the religious neighborhoods) and get yelled at by a religious man for wearing a v-neck tanktop, I get upset. And these things have been happening to me more and more recently. So. Again. Sorry about that.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Tue Apr 30, 2013 10:33 am

Aniihya- Yep I agree that prayer can be used as a method for people to pass the buck as it were. In the interests of being balanced though I know some people find great comfort in prayer. I don’t understand it but a lot of people feel this way.

Sometimes I also feel that an extension of what you are talking about leads people to be less curious, especially children. If the answer to every question is “God did it” asking questions kind of becomes moot to some types of people.

In a way I can understand this reaction, the world both scientific and social is a pretty scary place where there are very rarely absolutes. Framing things in terms of religions makes it easier to understand what’s going on but often leads to erroneous conclusions.

On the other hand sometimes I feel a little paralysed by lack of knowledge and at times I envy the self assuredness of people’s beliefs. Of course ultimately this is wrong as we should all question our beliefs and be open to other interpretations because it’s the only to grow. Sometimes though it would be nice to believe everything’s gonna work out ok because there’s a person in the sky keeping it on the straight and narrow. Most of the time though I think it would be horrible.

Stark-
Woah I thought I had it rough being an Atheist in Northern Ireland! That sounds insanely bad. I understand what you mean about bending or compromising what you think for the sake of a quiet life. Here, because politics are motivated by religion and ultimately a single issue which is whether you support a united Ireland or not, a lot of politicians get in whose actual beliefs aren’t supported by the population only their stance on the Ireland issue is.

For example I support Civil Partnerships for Gay and Lesbian couples however I also don’t believe a United Ireland is what’s best for Northern Ireland. This means I’m compelled to vote for a party that doesn’t support Civil Partnerships because I don’t want to vote for the party that supports civil partnerships and a united Ireland. Politics are a total mess here.

I read up on the Get (well skimmed a few articles) and it sounds horrible and pretty sexist. I also saw those ultra orthodox guys hassling girls on their way to school because it offends their religious sensibilities. It’s crazy and I can see why you’d get frustrated.

I guess that’s one of my pet peeves with the religious people who act like they are persecuted. Just look at how religious people act when they have power. Segregated Microwaves is just mental.
That’s messed up about religious schools. I thought everybody had to public service in Israel (which I think is good thing), maybe I’m getting it wrong but is it possible to do public service in lieu of military service? I know some countries have this option for pacifists etc.

Anyway I found your post pretty interesting, I suppose given the history of your nation religion is always going to be a big issue. Hopefully most people your age think the same way you do and future generations can become more secular while still respecting traditions.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:10 pm

In my opinion, most people are in Abrahamic religions because they are selfish. They think their deity will grant their every wish and that they were created in their gods image. That is a huge difference in contrast to my beliefs as I do not pray as I see it as waste of time and hope, in my opinion gods arent in shape of a human but rather are just elements of nature such as the wind and the earth and I rely on myself, take my own responsibility and help others so that they wont make the stupid decision to choose prayer over medical assistance. I might sound a bit disrespectful but it is only my view. I understand that some might feel comfort in prayer as they think a higher power is at their side and will have the mercy to help them, but my opinion is otherwise.

starkandskinny · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **starkandskinny** on Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:24 pm

Northern Ireland doesn't sound all that simple, either. I mean, even without considering the entire united Ireland issue, being an atheist amongst Catholics can't be easy. Our nations have that in common: being of either one almost automatically means you have to be associated with its religion.

We have similar political problems here, too. I've had my experience with other girls, and thus I obviously support gay rights. The problem is the only parties that support gay rights are nowhere near my political or economic beliefs - so despite my support, I constantly have to vote against it.

Orthodox Jews are crazy, yes - especially here in Jerusalem. This one instance I had to go see a doctor - I'd never been to his clinic before and had no idea it was right at the verge of an ultra-religious neighborhood, so I didn't dress accordingly (I wouldn't necessarily have even if I knew, but I would have taken it into consideration). I wasn't even wearing anything revealing - a long sweater, pants, and my hair was down. Apparently that didn't sit well with the local crowd, because a group of about five of them followed me to the clinic. They were waiting for me outside when I went out of the doctor's office - thankfully this kid who was hanging around noticed my distress and showed me to a different exit. It was scary as hell, but looking back I feel more angry than scared.

About public service - you can get exempted from the military for three reasons:
1. poor health, which you can't fake so it's the hardest way to get out
2. poor mental health - a little easier to fake, but still doesn't work 100% of the time
3. being religious (or faking it, either way, it's the easiest way)

You can do public service if you're exempted, but it's an option - meaning you don't have to if you don't want to. There's also an option of volunteering for the military - my friend got exempted for poor health (some chronic joint disease) and she volunteered for the military - she served a little less time than a normal soldier would, had to be stationed in a base that was no further than a 30 minute drive to a hospital, and didn't get to shoot a rifle (every Israeli soldier has to go through one day at the ranges in the least) - but she served her country just like anyone else.

Speaking of which, I used to know an Air Force pilot from Northern Ireland. Not trying to be mean, but you guys have the thickest accents. I had him repeat everything he said three times because I couldn't understand a word.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Wed May 01, 2013 6:53 am

Annihya.

I wouldn’t call them selfish. While I agree with you that prayer can be seen as a way to ask your buddy in the sky for things you want not all Christians approach it in that way and to suggest they do would be unfair of us. For example while some Christians do pray for a big promotion or whatever a lot pray for peace, cures to diseases or an end of poverty. Which is an admirable wish to have.

The problem is when they believe this to be enough or start to collate their own good fortune with their religion. This can lead to a situation where people believe if others are too stupid to follow their religion they deserve whatever fate befalls them.

I’m not being judgemental here and I’m trying to keep my language as neutral as possible but if you expect nothing of your Gods then why have them? If your God is the Earth or the Wind then is all expect of them to give you something to stand on and something to blow in your face?

I agree nature is something to respect and the concepts of preservation and being green are important but I hold them in the same regard as my political ideals or morals. Not Gods but still important.

Stark.

No need to apologise the Northern Irish Accent is kind of all over the show. For a small place there are many different ways or speaking and slang, in some places like Belfast or Fermanagh it can be brutal.
I think it’s because when people think of the Irish accent they expect a “Jeasus! Top a tha morning te ye.” Kind of thing. In the North we’re far more nasal and because of that people have thought I’m Scottish, English, American, Canadian or even South African.

While it is rough being an Atheist in Northern Ireland I’m from a protestant heritage but my Mum came from a predominately Catholic area which means I’ve got a lot of the verbal tics associated with both protestant areas and catholic areas. This has lead to a few awkward conversations with sectarian scumbags. Funny thing is they always look for differences not similarities. My group of friends growing up were a pretty mixed bag with both protestants and Catholics. I think integrated education is an amazing thing and really is the only way forward in situations like Northern Ireland. If you are still knocking around with the pilot ask them to say “Owl, Towel, Power Shower, Hour and Jack Bauer.” Apparently we say those words hilariously.

While there are defiantly no go areas in Belfast I’ve never been the focus of an angry mob which sounds terrifying. Clearly too many considerations are given to the religious in your part of the world again given the history there it’s a tricky situation.

The trouble of course is religion because it divides people along arbitrary lines and then gives them directly competing goals with little chance for compromise.

starkandskinny · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **starkandskinny** on Wed May 01, 2013 11:34 am

Not in touch with the pilot anymore, unfortunately, but if I ever visit Ireland (which I plan to) I'll be sure to get someone to say those words. (:

What do you mean 'verbal tics'? Do protestants pronounce certain words a different way? Probably not, but, I had to ask since I have no idea what that means.
What are the no-go areas in Belfast? I mean, why are they no-go areas?

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Wed May 01, 2013 5:57 pm

Unfortunately you are totally correct the verbal tics are slight variations in how people pronounce words or the slang they use. Like I said above there is a great variety of accents in Northern Ireland (I'm sure the same is true is of everywhere). If you've lived in NI for a while the differences become pretty clear. This means different people from different places in the country tend to have slightly different accents or slang. To most the difference is not noticeable but to natives who care about such things it can be used guess at where someone is from. This then leads to people making assumptions about that persons politics.

An example is the letter H which some people believe is pronounced differently by Protestants and Catholics. A ridiculous idea but there it is. Another one that strangely seems to be motivated by the US is the notion of Protestant and Catholic whiskey. A plastic paddy will tell what you order suggests your political views. A paddy will tell you they order what's cheapest.

As for no go areas theres the Falls road and the Shankill road which you want to stay out of. The Falls is staunch nationalist while the Shankill is unionist. Staying out of both is a good call. It's also a good idea to keep away from the peace lines or interface areas (where working class Protestant and Catholic residential areas meet) after dark.

Recently we've been dealing with the Flag protests/riots that effectively shut belfast down over Christmas. I went in a few times to see friends but the streets where dead. Ovbiously this had a knock on affect for local business as Christmas is supposed to be their busiest time.

The republican dissident terrorist threat has also increased which I reckon is due to the economic slow down across the world. Bombings and shootings are happening pretty frequently. It's far from the same extent it was in the 70s, 80s and early 90s but still it's not great.

Throw into the mix we have the G8 coming to NI and a lot of groups in the country with an agenda things are getting a little tense. Of course that dosen't discount the usual rabble of anarchists who rock up to the G8, in either case the second half of the year will be interesting.

Northern Ireland is a complicated place and I'm not going to pretend to fully understand it. For example when the Boston Bombing happened there was a popular option here that it was poetic justice as Boston is perceived to have supported irish terrorism in the past through things like NORAID.

Of course saying anyone deserves terrorism is indefensible and its not an opinion I share but still it was the opinion of more than a few people here. To be clear that's not my own opinion I mention it only to underline how confusing the feelings are of some people here.

Like I say its a complicated place with a lot of mixed feelings.

Sorry I guess it was my turn to rant a little.

I guess in the end it all comes down to identity. People my parents age would either describe themselves as British or Irish. Increasingly people my age are defining themselves as Northern Irish, may seem like a small thing but it's a big step toward a shared future.

To bring the discussion back on track while keeping the notion of identity rolling, becuase people are already divided along so many lines (race, gender, politics etc) does religion offer a way to address these differences or does it further divide people? Is Athiesm is unifying force or one of division? Do any Athiests feel that their Athiesm is an identity?

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Thu May 02, 2013 5:37 am

Bosch: It's animism. You do not have to understand the worship. It is rather a spiritual thing that doesnt leave self awareness and responsibility in the hands of religion. People sometimes say that I am not actually a theist because my definition of gods does not fit the conventional one and is rather a naturalist spiritual approach. I feel that everything in nature has its cause and that causes can be unknown or even not comprehensible. I am not a hippie that says save the trees or the animals but rather: life is barbaric and brutal, make the best of it.

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Mon May 06, 2013 9:23 am

That's interesting and I guess so long as you understand your beliefs and they make no demands of others that's cool. While I agree that "life is brutal" I dont think it has to be and certainly wouldn't take that as a way to justify the negative impacts people have on nature. Nature aside while life is brutal I don't think it's right that I'm sitting in a restaurant enjoying a pint and a burger while folks are starving on the other side of the world. We could shrug and say "life is brutal" or try to change it.

I'm not getting at your beliefs and I'm aware I'm engaging in Reductio ad absurdum. In fact I'd guess you agree with most of what I said above. As this is a topic about atheism though I reckon it would be remiss of me not to say that accepting things as they are is bad.

starkandskinny · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **starkandskinny** on Mon May 06, 2013 10:20 am

That's pretty crazy stuff, I must admit. I mean I thought people around here were off-tracks, but it seems like things in Ireland are equally tense. The idea that people of different beliefs (not even different religions) would talk differently or order different drinks because of their beliefs is just plain whack.

I don't know about you, but I can only talk for myself when I say the bombings are the toughest part. I've never lived in Israel's bombarded areas, but this year a few missiles made it to the outskirts of Jerusalem. The first time they sounded off the alarm my boyfriend and I just stood looking out the window and had no idea what to do with ourselves. Obviously you're supposed to run for shelter, but it was the first time either one of us ever heard a missile alarm.
Thankfully, the bombing's stopped since then - not in the south, but at least in the area where I live.

Regarding your new questions - I don't see atheism as part of my identity. Then again I probably feel that way because it's so obvious to me that I can't be anything but an atheist. I was never raised in a religious family\ environment. I mean, of course, much like NI it's kind of hard avoiding religion entirely in this country - but I just... wasn't around any heavy religious influences as a child, so it never sunk in.
As far as unifying or dividing goes - I don't want to go around making reckless statements. All I can say is that being an atheist, I don't care whether you're religious or not or what religion you identify yourself with. To each his own, and if faith brings you joy - have fun. I won't disqualify anyone because they identify themselves as religious.
On the contrary, I can't say I've been treated the same way by religious folk. I'm constantly being attacked for the way I dress, my tattoos (which are entirely forbidden in Judaism), my lifestyle, etc.
On the other hand, though, I've met some amazing religious people that were very welcoming and accepted me the way I am and weren't bothered by the fact that my beliefs were different from theirs (or, well, nonexistent). These people are rare, though. At least from my experience.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Mon May 06, 2013 12:01 pm

I doubt that if I were to ever go to Jerusalem, I would be mocked for my appearance since many people think I am Hassidic just because I have a beard and wear black suits most of the time. Funny part is, due to the complexion of mine which has Eastern European and Sinti influences people think even more that I look like specific types. I try to live a simple life without materialistic thought out of my own reasons and not because of religious reasons. In my opinion, living a particular lifestyle because of religion is stupid. That is one thing I give thumbs up to atheists and agnostics for since they arent restricted in lifestyle due to beliefs, yet there is still the problem of living a particular lifestyle due to social norms (such as peer pressure or frowning upon certain habits). To be honest, I rate physical things by how practical they are while non-physical things such as though are rated by complexity and how well thought they might be. You mustnt try to understand that you cannot understand, otherwise you will make interpretations and making interpretations of things that arent meant to be interpreted in that way can go seriously wrong (examples: Science, religion, political ideologies). The perfect example is who idiots understand evolution as use coming from monkey when in fact we are part of the family of primates and have a common ancestor with chimpanzees. Yet these undereducated people, atheists and theists alike, have never heard of abiogenesis and if so, do not understand it. Same thing is with the big bang theory, it is a theory but is often seen as fact by the average atheist crusader, when it as a theory is actually just a possibility that seems more logical and likely than creation. I adhere for example to a theory that is rather hard to understand or even imagine: the continuous universe theory (as in: there is no beginning and no end, Something the human mind cannot yet really comprehend to.)

*continuous universe theory is also known as the Steady State theory

Bosch · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Bosch** on Tue May 07, 2013 10:35 am

Stark.

The bombings have calmed way down here since the 90’s, these days punishment beatings and kneecappings are more common. Although the occasional bomb threat has impeded my day and the cops seem to foil a plot every couple of months. Rioting of course remains the national pastime, it seems the ages of some of these rioters are really low. This is obviously worrying as they are supposed to the next generation who keep the ball rolling in terms of peace making.

I think identity is the problem with most Atheists, in normal life my non belief rarely comes up. I go a long to get along and let people assume what they want. So long as their beliefs don’t make demands of me it’s all good in the hood. Some Atheists though wear it as almost a badge of honour. These are the folks who make the rest of us look bad. The ones who pick fights or attempt to “convert” people to Atheism.

Anii.

We’ve done the Theory vs Fact definition dance before and I’ve no interest in going for another round because, frankly, life is just too short. Ditto for Abiogenesis and Evolution, they are different things and we’ve covered it in past topics. As for the steady state theory I’m not here to teach and this topic is about atheism not cosmological debate however you should review the evidence. The Big Bang is the better model. Is it perfect? No but it explains more. In time it will added to and augmented as we become better at collecting evidence.

As for living freely I guess Atheists are freer in the sense we don’t have to abide by religious rules but you’re right that we have to abide by societies rules . That’s a good thing. We also have to look at ourselves in the mirror so we do have to be ethical.

I would like you to expand on this point if possible.

“You mustn’t try to understand that you cannot understand, otherwise you will make interpretations and making interpretations of things that aren’t meant to be interpreted in that way can go seriously wrong (examples: Science, religion, political ideologies).”

Are you saying there are certain fields we shouldn’t even try to explore? I’m of the opinion we should always try to understand more about the world. Just because we are unable to comprehend something doesn’t mean we shouldn’t explore it. By definition we cannot comprehend infinity yet it is used in maths.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Tue May 07, 2013 11:58 am

No I am not trying to say that we shouldn't explore the unknown. We just shouldn't make assumptions with the first sign of evidence, since with a small amount of evidence, people will make theories already since it will definitely be debunked when more evidence is found. Not every theory is able to be modified. Is a 1000 piece puzzle done only after connecting two pieces? No. With this I am mentioning scientific theory in general.

And regarding maths, while maths deals with absolutes, in reality there arent absolutes with some exceptions. And we can comprehend to infinity, we just cannot visualize it since infinity means no limit and no end.

Ἐνυώ · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Ἐνυώ** on Tue May 07, 2013 3:26 pm

Oh Good God Gerdy, I have no idea where I stand on such a subject. My mother is a Jehovah Witness while my father is borderline christian. I am jealous at how the Witnesses are all some calm and happy people, I can't seem to grasp the concept. My father has ever dragged me out to church and doesn't talk about it, but he does believe in something. The bible does have fascination points, like how the earth was created. While science says the Bing bang theory (A massive explosion cannot place the earth in such a way that it perfectly centered near the sun, can it?) But the idea of earth being made in what is it, 7 days? Blows my mind. I'm curious of the science but unsure of where I actually stand.

Aniihya · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Aniihya** on Tue May 07, 2013 6:03 pm

Enyo: The explosion in the big bang theory is better understood as rapid expansion and not kaboom. By the way, the bible said nothing about the cosmos and said that the sun, the moon, the stars revolved around earth which was flat and that the sky is blue because earth would be a space surrounded by water. Even the Vedas was able to make more sense than the bible. In my honest opinion, if you want to believe in something, do not follow what books say. It is not wrong to be skeptical of something. The opposite of skepticism is blind faith. If you do not believe in god or dont believe in any god, it is fine. Follow your heart and do not let peer pressure nor social sanctions (from parents or society) get you down.

My mom, a rather religious catholic, was rather disappointed when I legally deregistered with the church (oddly, I was baptized into an orthodox church rather than protestant or catholic). My dad didn't care since he is rather an agnostic (dont know if atheist or theist) and my grandma (on my dads side) was an atheist, who didnt really worry about beliefs. Yet today, I am discriminated by some, including two coworkers for not being Christian. But I do what I can do best: stand my ground. Since I do so, my coworkers have backed down and are started to try to get along with me.

So, you just need to know what you think is best for you and be self-conscious about it.

Lone Dreamer · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Lone Dreamer** on Tue May 14, 2013 9:05 pm

Oh I believe in a God a wonderful God! I jest I couldn't help but to fit the Christian stereotype but I do believe in a God and I am Christian. Even though I am Christian I do believed there are good people in and out of the church just like I believe there are bad individuals in and out of the church. I will not shove my religion down your throat, I will not brag about it, and I definitely will not judge a person for I believe people to be greatest and worst of things. Oh and I believe I dislike myself much more than I would an another for I know myself but I do not fully know a stranger, a friend, a family member. I do not think my kind shall be the only kind to be saved but I believe plenty in and out of my little circle shall be saved. Now with that religious talk out the way I like believers and nonbelievers alike and will be the last to believe you will be deemed to hell (Which I also don't believe in eternal punishment) for one simple reason: I do not truly know you nor do I know your past or future so it is not in my place to state you destination. Regardless of what you believe in I will like you the same, unless you're like a Satanist. I won't hate you or curse you to damnation I will simply be creep out if you pull out voodoo instruments or whatever they do.

- Sincerely Dreaming

It’s not easy being faithless.

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It’s not easy being faithless.

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