Women In The Military

Saarai · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Saarai** on Sun Apr 17, 2011 2:31 am

I was speaking to someone about the recent changes with Australia's military, and came the topic of if women could be allowed to join the military or if they are fit. Especially when it comes to serving on the frontlines with men. I'm all for it, but I'm wondering what others think of women serving on the frontlines and in hostile environments. Do you think they're fit to serve? Do you think they're unfit? Etc. Etc.

Zephyr · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Zephyr** on Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:41 am

Many women who join the army are more than capable enough of handling themselves on the battlefield. Hence, I see no reason as to why they shouldn't be allowed.

Fitzwilliam · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Fitzwilliam** on Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:24 pm

I don't see a problem with women serving in the military; my ex-girlfriend is commissioned as an officer in the US Army, and her mother served as an Army nurse for decades. The only problem I see with women in combat roles relates to men, and the psychological impact a wounded woman has on the kind of man who joins the military. The Israeli Defense Force did not allow women to join for over half a century, mainly because they noticed that when a female squadmate was injured, it became nearly impossible for the men in her unit to remain rational and follow orders efficiently. Of course, the IDF has been conscripting women alongside men on an experimental basis since 2001, but the question remains: Is the desire of women to be in combat roles compatible with the almost instinctual response in any decent man to help a "damsel in distress?" I suppose the only way we can find out is to try.

Lukisod · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Lukisod** on Fri Apr 22, 2011 11:06 pm

I've noticed first hand in the infantry that the very few women I've seen in the trade do very poorly. Usually it's a fitness issue. Although they are held to a different standard signing up, having to perform only about 66% as well as men, during practical training they must perform to the same level as everyone else and they don't keep up. This puts a lot of pressure on them and I've seen two drop out entirely and one transfer. As of now there are no women in my regiment of about 800.

My view is that if a woman is able to do the job to the standard the job needs to be done, she's more than welcome to join. But I wont stand for this weaker standard crap. There's a reason you have to perform to a certain level. Lowering that bar just to let someone in and give the appearance of diversity and equality will end up getting people killed.

I agree with the point Fitzwilliam brought up. I'd also like to add that over 3 tours I've seen that women get a lot of attention in a 90% male environment, especially overseas. This often leads to romantic bonds and close relationships where the woman will be... I'll say adopted by a group of guys. Thus the loss of this person would be crushing to moral. Maybe more-so than a similar male comrade but I wont presume to speak for everyone.

conor · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **conor** on Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:56 am

Fitzwilliam wrote:I don't see a problem with women serving in the military; my ex-girlfriend is commissioned as an officer in the US Army, and her mother served as an Army nurse for decades. The only problem I see with women in combat roles relates to men, and the psychological impact a wounded woman has on the kind of man who joins the military. The Israeli Defense Force did not allow women to join for over half a century, mainly because they noticed that when a female squadmate was injured, it became nearly impossible for the men in her unit to remain rational and follow orders efficiently. Of course, the IDF has been conscripting women alongside men on an experimental basis since 2001, but the question remains: Is the desire of women to be in combat roles compatible with the almost instinctual response in any decent man to help a "damsel in distress?" I suppose the only way we can find out is to try.

Thats actually a point of view i had never thought about, its brilliant :)

I am quote for women in the military, if they want to join and they can handle it let them sign up

Sheoul · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Sheoul** on Sun Apr 24, 2011 9:45 pm

What does it matter? Sure, they should be able to sign up like everyone else, but really. A soldier isn't meant to be a person, gender, idendity, emotion, and all that other good stuff aren't what a soldier is. They're meant to be completely alike, it's why rank and uniform is more important than bust size or "shoe size." It's a non-question you've asked because gender doesn't enter into being a soldier in the first place.

Medic · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Medic** on Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:05 am

I as well agree with Lukisod I definetly dont mind women in the military. But I really cant stand it when we have someone who is just plan unfit to be in the military. It gets even worse when they kind of flirt with superiors inorder to get out of certain duties or trouble. Especially when they go to what my sergeant calls Parade Pretty. lol.

I haven't been deployed yet so all of this is just coming from what I have seen during training or from my company and we only have one female and she is our LT so yeah.

But if you can hump it, pull your own weight and your not gonna quit I dont have a problem with you being at my side whether your a girl or a guy, straight or gay.

ChaoticMarin · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **ChaoticMarin** on Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:25 am

Eeeeh... I find myself agreeing with Fitzwilliam and Lukisod.
I don't think forced equality has any place in the military. The military is our line of defense. It needs to be efficient before it tries to be pretty. If having women join the military opens a psychological vulnerability, which I don't find unbelievable, they need to not let women join the military. It doesn't sound pretty, but war is a highly competitive operation with no forgiveness for weaknesses.

Steppin' Razor · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Steppin' Razor** on Wed Apr 27, 2011 12:38 pm

Sheoul wrote:What does it matter? Sure, they should be able to sign up like everyone else, but really. A soldier isn't meant to be a person, gender, idendity, emotion, and all that other good stuff aren't what a soldier is. They're meant to be completely alike, it's why rank and uniform is more important than bust size or "shoe size." It's a non-question you've asked because gender doesn't enter into being a soldier in the first place.

This is how it it supposed to be. How it should be. Unfortunately, it is not the case. No matter how true to the ideal of "soldier" one might be, every person is first and foremost still a human being. A flawed human being. And this is why it is a problem and why it will always be a problem.

Even putting aside the psychological issue that has already been highlighted by Fitzwilliam there is another issue that was actually the first to my mind, briefly touched upon by Medic. Special treatment. Going back to the problem of soldiers being humans and not hi-tech robots, this is a simple reality that we cannot entirely prevent. Or, as young Joseph in Kindergarten Cop put it, "Boys have a penis, and girls have a vagina." Yes, there are plenty of gays, lesbians, and bi-sexuals in the military. This doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of guys who like girls and the guy to girl ratio is typically very skewed. This brings me to my personal viewpoint, until I learn something that pushes me in another direction:

I think if women are allowed in the military at all, not just in combat, their work environment should be completely separate from that of men. I don't know how you would handle the quite possibly nightmarish logistics of this division but there you go. Maybe they are on the same post but work on separate sides, more likely they are only assigned to specific posts that are exclusive to women. Maybe there are posts that are near each other but gender-specific (<--logistic nightmare/money sink). Have them function in Brigade Combat Teams―with their support, their combat, their whatever―except it is all women. Then they can live together, work together, fight together, and try their best to make it home together. I feel this is the best way to make it work, and I think it is possible to pull off with some good planning. Because I think if a woman wants to fight then she should be provided the same opportunity. But I would not want to deal with all the drama and internal conflict that can happen when you throw in some mammary and hips with a bunch of guys. Especially a bunch of guys who are in some lousy desert far from home for a year. And also the combat thing, yeah.

Source: First-hand knowledge. Sorry, idealists.

Rey · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Rey** on Tue May 03, 2011 6:42 pm

I don't see the reason why should there be a woman in the military and I don't see why she shouldn't be in military either...

Vain · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Vain** on Wed May 04, 2011 7:26 pm

Well as far as women in the military go I've been a soldier for about two and a half years and I've come to find that it differs between where I've been. Hell, in basic we didn't really have any problems with having women in our unit. Actually, a female had the highest PT score in our unit at 350 I think. Though from then I have seen differences. In AIT while off duty it was incredibly relaxed and it was basically just people getting together and hanging out. I did see a few relationships that crossed the line of fraternization, but during out training missions it was mission first male and female close to last. Now since I've been in my unit I've seen the situation change yet again and I have to say that I don't like what I've seen. Pretty much every female in my unit so far has gotten pregnant. All at the same time mind you as well. This eliminates about half our fighting strength should we get deployed. Then we have to pull people from IRR who haven't been training or working out, are no longer really qualified for the jobs we need them to do, and still cut our strength badly. So, from what I've seen it depends on the environment, how strict your command is, and how disciplined your soldiers are. I've been with some women that I would be glad to have my back while others not so much. This goes for men too. It just depends on the situation and the people.

Lukisod · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Lukisod** on Mon May 09, 2011 3:27 pm

Rey wrote:... I don't see why she shouldn't be in military either...

Because the world is not perfect and people out there are keen to use force of arms to pursue their ends. So long as there are threats to the life and well being of citizens, there will be a need to have a group of individuals trained and equipped to apply lethal force to either dissuade or engage that threat to preserve said life and well being. Anything less is asking to be conquered by someone who is willing to use those means themselves, which I suspect there will always be.

Expeditionary armies (ones who go to other countries) are used to either; secure vital resources so you can continue to live the good life you do (oil), stabilize a country who has lost the means to police itself (peace keeping/making) and to bring the fight to an enemy on their own soil to cripple that enemies ability to make war on your front lawn, thus keeping your country safe (Nazi Germany).

Those are the only valid reasons I can think of to maintain and use force of arms.

Invalid reasons include genocide and personal vendetta.

Medic · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Medic** on Mon May 09, 2011 5:21 pm

Well I found out that I am supposed to be borrowed to a different unit for about two weeks in May and I've been told that this unit has a lot more females in it than in my original unit. So I might be able to gain a new perspective on this matter that will differ from what I posted earlier.

Ellipsis · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Ellipsis** on Mon May 16, 2011 5:28 pm

Lots of interesting points have been brought up here--physical capacity, psychological impact on comrades, double standards, and a generally definitive lack of equality between the genders... Fitzwilliam and Lukisod made particularly good points.

I wish that I could say that there are no significant differences between the sexes, and what little there are should have no impact on the way that they perform and are regarded by their fellows and the opposition. The fact is, however, that there are, and that the military has been forced to address several issues and make accommodations accordingly. I do not believe that these accommodations negatively impact any of the contributions that females have to offer the military.

I recall there being a couple of high-profile incidents with military females at the center of the controversy or tragedy. Although it makes me wince to say it, I suggest taking those with a grain of salt, as I suspect that they were only so high-profile because they did involve females in the military. I'm sure that atrocities worth note occur all too often on the other end of the gender spectrum; they're simply not reported as often.

I guess what it comes down to is this--do the aforementioned pros outweigh the cons, or vice versa?

Medic · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Medic** on Tue May 17, 2011 8:48 pm

Well im about a fourth of the way through my ftx and im typing from my phone so forgive any syntax errors.

So from working with a platoon that has a good majority of females I've been able to find out some more information. And basically it has come down to this some women are shitbags and some aren't. Just like everyone else in the military. I was talking to one female who said that a lot of females in there company have gotten pregnant because they didn't want to deploy. But I have also met some females who are awesome as hell.

Honestly I sort of forgot that they are chicks because I feel like they are just "one of the guys" basically.

Ellipsis · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **Ellipsis** on Tue May 17, 2011 11:40 pm

All my life, I have been surrounded by Marines--raised a military brat, the sibling of two Marines, and almost tempted to join myself. The interaction that I witnessed between the sexes in that particular branch left me feeling that the males behaved no differently regarding their female peers. (This was also during a period of time where females in military intelligence was a somewhat hot issue--the Navy and Army were down, while the Marines were still not all that keen on the idea.)

Medic, I do find it particularly repugnant that anyone would 'plead their belly' to get out of deployment. That isn't something that I had considered when I was reviewing the physiological differences and the issues that they might present. (Although I did wander in the direction of the particular forms of abuse that female prisoners of war are subject to--and the consequences. I do believe that that was one of the points in the argument against allowing women to serve in the military...)

little luna · **Tips:** 0.00 INK by **little luna** on Tue May 31, 2011 11:55 pm

I don't see the problem with letting women in the military. I don't see anything that would make them "unfit." There are standards. Some men are unfit because they don't pass, so some women might not, but that doesn't mean all women should be barred from joining.
My best friend is a US Marine. She passed her Crucible the first time and is in better physical shape than a lot of guys I know. She's definitely not "unfit" to serve.

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