On Combat

[Zhelir Darkfall]

First off, a small declaration of purpose.

I put this in Flame Wars in anticipation of a hostile reception, but this is not intended as an attack on any one person; rather, this is more of an observation of the mentality that comes with the dedicated text fighter, and the issues I see with it.

With that said, I'll dive into it.

I hate text fighting. Hate it. I see things like the GT League and I cringe at the thought of a group of people doing nothing but fighting. I was not always this way. I used to truly enjoy speed-based combat, but I'll tell you now that I've not had an enjoyable match since GWing went up. I also have no doubt that back when I was in my prime, I was possessed of the very mentality that I hate.

Text fighting has one massive, inherent flaw: There is no set-in-stone way of deciding who wins, short of using dice, in which case skill becomes almost moot. The egos (God, the egos) that go along with text fighting are that of the jockiest of jocks. Arrogant and infallible. When these two fact collide, you get the simple (and expected) result of chaos. Without the solid fact that you didn't score enough touchdowns, goals, or get the fewest strokes, everything becomes open to interpretation. Both sides of a fight can make an argument as to how they won using the exact same quotes with different interpretations (Although from my experience as a former GT Judge, I'll say that both sides are usually weak, at best). When someone is ruled the loser, they complain, they argue, they insist the judge didn't understand, or was biased, or some other such nonsense.

Even worse than that, though I hate to admit the necessity for a third party, is when there is no judge. When you simply have two people at the end of a fight, yet no resolution, because each is damn sure that they won. With a judge, you at least have a concrete (at least, as concrete as it gets) answer, regardless of how both sides feel. Without, you are left with two people bickering endlessly.

The big sticking point that brings this about is when people relate text combat to Roleplaying. My apologies if you take offense to this, but they are not the same thing, not any more. Roleplaying is about a story, and characters, and enjoying the progression of it all; fighting has become little more than a pissing contest, with each contestant coming out of it with wet shoes and a bad attitude. I make the one exception to include Collaborative Style. That is to say, the form of combat in which the winner is already decided and the focus is on the writing of the event, and not the outcome. That is the style I restrict myself to and the style I respect, because it takes a considerably bigger person to decide right off the bat that they will lose (which does not always, or even frequently, mean death) than it does to scream about being beaten.

But this style excluded from the generality (and I'm sure there's one or two others out there that I haven't heard of and could probably dig), no, I do not believe in the least that text combat and Roleplaying are the same activity. They both involve typing, they both involve inventing (usually) a character, and that's about all they have in common. I find competitive fighting to actually be detrimental to plot progression and character development, and am absolutely appalled by the lack of respect fighters have for one another -- I'll stop the typical response now. Yes, everyone claims to respect one another before all the fighting and bickering starts, but by the end of it, I don't think anyone walks out without an attack or two to their name.

Is there a real point to this rant? No. It's something that's been weighing on my mind lately, and something I needed to get out and see how other people feel about it, that's all.

[Selothi]

Well, of course, you are perfectly right Zhelir, it's often down to who has the biggest e-penis, and who packs the biggest punch, and who was better and the bestest in the fight while the other was a lame cheater. Sadly, this form of bickering at the end of an event is rather frequent, I'm just saying it's happened since times immemorial, from the highest of Kings to the lowest of murderers. The human race is prone to always wanting to win, and the males especially have no humility (generalising, I know, but it's the truth) ...

In the end, let the Alpha males bark and growl, it takes a real man to admit that he's been bested. They ARE rare, but then you've got someone who should be allowed to text-fight, and who you know will do it well. Everybody has an ego, and modern society makes us competitive, defiant and haughty, so unless you're a perfect maverick, you're going to disagree when you lose. All you gotta remember is that if you were beaten, you WERE beaten, and if it was fair and square, shut your gob and get over it.

Yeah, you are right, and I'm sad if you were put off text-based fighting because of the immature machos that only want to brag about their universally-sized ego (example: *cough*Saladin*cough*) But hey, nothing you can do about human nature. Get a good feel for the person you're fighting with, and enjoy it, when they start bickering forget about it. You don't gain anything other than experience from winning and losing, your ranking on the GT League is just as bogus, so yeah ... Can't find a proper end, so I'll stop it here ... Selothi out.

[Kædai]

I believe you are right, you two. I especially agree with what Selothi said: They are Rare, but occasionally you find someone who isn't afraid to be beaten, who accepts the terms of losing with no qualms. A person who, upon losing, has the courage to stand back up and say, "Good job." THEY are the only people who should be allowed to Text-Fight, because they have the respect of the other party. Not these immature twelve-year-olds (No offence to them in general, and not trying to be a hypocrite, I'm 15) who think that losing is the end of the world and something which will haunt them the rest of their lives. Sadly, this is all based on things I've seen. I have never actually experienced a real Text-Fight, as I usually am busy with other stuff. So...yeah. That's about it. My two cents.

[DCLXVI]

Trouble is, Darkfall, the people you're trying to change will just read the first three sentences of your post, and then say "What? This guy's a moron..." and not read the rest of it. Nor will they accept it, because they will have gone into the thread "knowing" that you're wrong. But you're actually right. They just refuse to accept it.

[Lamentations]

Well i simply hate it becuase they make unstoppably characters that never get hit or beaten, thats usually the immature kids. Thats why i have stopped.

[DCLXVI]

I never started, myself. I try to avoid text-based combat in role plays, so I usually have characters who list to the "flight" side, rather than the "fight" side.

[Remæus]

The GT League you experienced was a slanted misinterpretation of the original idea. It's a recordkeeping service, not a community or grounds for the egocentric and self-loving trolls like Nonpareil.

Take a look at the culmination of what the GT League is about, the Grand Tournament, and see what is intended. There is a firm and very required basis in roleplay, and even the in character combat is secondary to the story and motivation.

Some people just don't get it, and some people never will get it. But that doesn't prevent me from attempting to reach whatever small portion of intelligent players that will get it, and I will work hard to continue to set an example for generations to come.

And I'm not going to spoon-feed them, either.

[Dionysus]

What can I say that you all haven't made quite clear already? Again as I just got done mentioning in my other thread about Textual Combat, the keyword here is Honor... Where is the Honor? This is why I miss the old Comicity Chat, because even though it was poorly designed in a pre-American fashion, at least the Japs had a good sense of Honor... Players didn't die in Comicity... I mean, not unless they deserved it. Comicity was more like an ancient Japanese village than an Anime community. And the regulars, the oldies, they were more like actual samurai than like on-line fighters. Everyone in Comicity had a sense of Honor... And I loved how you could feel the difference just by entering the Chat, you could physically quite literally feel a strong spiritual presence at Comicity as soon as you joined the conversation.

Everyone had a title, everyone was greeted as Master or Grandmaster or Professor or something. Back in Comicity when I used to practice Speedbased textual combat, there were no rules. Nothing was written down, nobody told you right from wrong because everyone at Comicity already knew what was expected. Noobs were distinguished from oldies not only by their skills in on-line fighting, but also by the color of their names in the Chat, which symbolized the color of their belts or sashes. Comicity was a special place, there weren't too many places like that back then. Not only was everyone in Comicity a talented role-player, but noobs could only get into the Chat by way of invitation. It's a shame it closed down, I miss the old Japanese servers.

But... Now that we've all come to the conclusion that we hate the problem, how do we fix it? That is why I mentioned earlier in my other thread about proper instruction. Why is it that a student in America is usually more disrespectful and arrogant than a student in let's say, Hong Kong? Why do Americans get away with more, and feel like they can do whatever they please? You probably know why, but I'll tell you any way... Discipline.

If an American student is disrespectful to his teachers, they make him take a time-out to think about what he's done. But if an Asian student is disrespectful to his teachers, they knock his teeth out... and this is how they instruct discipline... At the old Comicity Chat, if someone was undisciplined they were banned from entering the room. The elite council had precedures with certain warnings and disciplines for certain things.

For instance, a noob who was disrespectful by cursing obscenely or yelling profanities would be muted by the council. It was cool at Comicity because the council could actually restrict player's from posting priveleges without banning them from the Chat room. A player who cursed too much would be silenced for 30-seconds so they could only watch while everyone else in the room was having fun role-playing. A player who continually flooded the Chat screen with all-capital words would be booted from the room. The same thing would happen to a player who typed too fast, or was caught cheating in an on-line fight. Players who attacked other players for no reason were expected to accept defeat if they lost, and if they didn't then they would get banned for 12-hours. Comicity had all different softwares to help keep the Chat in order. Of course there were also different classes, or groups which everyone belonged to as well. Guests had the basic priveleges of chatting and reading what others had typed. Registered users had more priveleges, such as the ability to change their font colors and styles. Noobs, Elites, and Oldies all had their own functions in the community. Noobs could chat, but they couldn't private chat. Elites could do both, and Oldies could even voice chat. I guess what I'm trying to get at is... Comicity had its own system of discipline.

And I think the problem with on-line fighters nowadays is that they have no discipline. They have nothing to believe in, nothing to fight for. They just fight, for no reason whatsoever. There needs to be a leader... someone in the community who is supported by the voice of a strong council. There needs to be two leaders, actually... one to be the head of each council, so that there can be a rivalry between them. Each of the two councils should command over different sites, each having their own passwords and accesses to prevent others from over-throwing them. The council should be made up of 10-moderators, and there should be 1-admin to rule them all. Below each council should be each admin's personal clan made up of countless individuals whose deeds and actions reflect their entire clan as a whole... There should be a fitting story-line for each of the two clans, which gives them the correct spirit... You have to simulate the battle, make them actually believe they are at war with one another. Make them all have family names, so everyone knows which warrior represents which clan. That way they feel important like they truly belong, and they will feel like they have a cause or purpose for role-playing. That way also, their personal behaviors and fighting abilities will reflect on not just them but the rest of their families within the clan.

That is what we used to do back in the old days to keep the fun going. By setting up two castles and pinning them against one another on two different websites, players were able to not only get involved but actually "feel" involved as well... May sound weird but hey, it works... And not only that but it's also a good way to mix it up a little bit, get the act of on-line fighting actually "involved" into the role-playing story behind the conflict. Setup classes and occupations, because surely not everyone is going to be a warrior. You have to have soldiers who go out and fight, bodyguards who just protect your castle, waitresses who serve the guests and provide entertainment, teachers to train your troops in whatever occupations are needed at any given time, doctors to heal your soldiers when they return from battle, spies to gather information from your enemies, there's all sorts of cool things you could do with a Clan-vs-Clan RPG... little things like that will encourage role-players to role-play more often, and it will encourage on-line fighters to have honor, discipline, respect, and a personal sense of dignity in not wanting to bring shame upon their own clans... But hey, that's just my voice yelling at the wind. What do I know?

I guess what I'm saying is... there's ways you could force on-line fighters to role-play more often.

[Skallagrim]

I agree with Zhel and Rem. I absolutely dislike the utter lack of respect that some fighters have towards their opponent. I also realize that it is subjective, it's all the perspective of the viewer and writer that determines the winner, and as in real life, all perspective is carried from the world view of the observer/reader. There are a great deal of younger males who have that competitive urge to win and it carries over in their writing, who are into text-based fighting.

This usually from what I have read, leads to insanely over powered characters, and an escalation in powers to simply "Not lose", as was evidenced in the failed Crimson Knight Invasion. That being said I also agree with Rem, the GT league's Grand Tourney as it is laid out here, is a great role-play driven vehicle, given that the participants understand that is not just about fighting. In the role-play "Lobby" there has been only a handful of the 32 or so fighters actually utilizing it for interaction and growth.

And the rules for the fighting in the tourney are laid out and are applied equally to each fighter, even though there has been an incident in one match where the closed fight parameters was ignored by one fighter completely. I think that Rem has a good concept and has implemented it as best as possible given the circumstances of interpretation and perspective on each fighters part. The rules codify that all posts must make logical sense in the context of the reality of the GT dimension, for both offense and defense. Obfuscated techniques will be discarded and clear and concise writing to explain all actions are held in higher regard than a simple sentence of "I hit you ten times and jump back."

Anyway I am looking forward to seeing where I ultimately wind up, win or lose in the tourney.

[Dionysus]

If the male hormones in the Grand Tournament seems to be the problem... close it down for a week... tell everyone in the GT-League to take a chill-pill and practice their creative writing for a week... Hell, hold a contest to see who can write their own 2-person RP-conflict in which nobody gets hurt... Don't have anyone fight each other, just make them write a 1,000 word screen-play involving 2 characters who become enemies. I started doing that a few weeks ago just to see how my creative writing was. I chose to write out a screen-play about Saigo Takamori, the last samurai of Japan, and his rebellion against the new reform... One way I found out how to be more creative is to pay close attention to the region, date, time, season, weather, animals, trees, costumes, mountains, rivers, and anything in the story that didn't have something to do with fighting... Another way you could do it, as I started doing with the Saigo Takamori screen-play, is involve more than just 1-or-2 characters. Make the story interesting, place thousands of different characters in your story-line. I wrote a chapter where Saigo Takamori and the Satsuma rebels go up against a band of 300 musketeers on the foggy slopes of these small foothills in an open-field in Japan. Imagine if you can, a curtain of flaming arrow-heads raining down on Saigo and a hundred of his most loyal samurai, swords drawn, who charge head-strong into the cloudy battlefield ahead of them... And then getting caught in the confusion of blood and smoke, turning every which way, only to see the bare teeth of armored horses with the naying expression of being hit, as the occassional sound of clanking armor whispers past your periphreal view, all around you lingering like ghostly silhouettes caused by the thundering of the muskets and the partial deafness in your ears which makes you YELL BECAUSE YOU CAN'T HEAR THE GUY NEXT TO YOU BEING IMPALED!!!

SORRY *cough*... got carried away there for a second.

[Remæus]

Dio: The GT League is not the Grand Tournament.

The Grand Tournament is an event (a competition of fighters).
The GT League is a recordbook (it tracks fights all around the internet).

[Kouketsu]

Sounds like the words of somebody who never won a fight, Zhelir. *Coughs some.*

So all joking aside, I'm certainly not going to come here and play the "upstanding fighter" card and say "Oh, why yes, I agree wholeheartedly! I can't stand those rapscallions that can't keep their traps shut!" like I've never gotten into a dispute over a fight before - I have. Plenty of times. But I've seen just as many roleplay-related disputes as I have in fighting. And the reasons are inherently the same for the arguments in both cases. Miscommunication and people unsatisfied with the way in which whatever they're playing has progressed.

The simple fact of life is that, in many circumstances, people just want their way. The experience is lessened if they don't get it. Who wants to go through taking the time and effort to have a competition with somebody else if they get nothing to show for it in the end? And to go along with the sports analogies started in the initial post, it's not like football or hockey or anything else where the points clearly determine a winner and thusly there is no room for argument (Despite this fact - I have seen countless sports arguments on questionable calls also; fouls, flags, close plays and the like are argued by even the most professional players when they're not definitive and clear - it's also why referees exist and why judges should exist in most textual combat). Text fighting always leaves open the room for dispute, so naturally arguments are going to arise and even more likely when there is something at stake.

With that said, the only problem I have with it is that typically I find it unbelievably boring. Anybody who has ever asked me for a fight knows how ungodly difficult it is to get one from me, and the reason for that is just that I don't find fighting all that fun. It's rare to find an opponent who I can have a good time with and establish a quality flow with in combat (SSJ3Mewtwo probably got the best out of me on that regard, although currently Ahzrei is doing a rather good job of it), so I usually enter a fight dreading what's to come and then have that dread later validated when the fight ends up totally sucking. And that's not even touching my feelings about reading or watching the fights of others. I can't stand it. I've never been able to stand it. Even since my days as a speed fighter, I have absolutely abhorred it. It's like watching somebody else's roleplay except with no definitive storyline to follow so that at least some kind of enjoyment can be gained from it.

[Keikeiya]

Ooo Text Fighting...*sighs deeply*

Well, I can’t say that I absolutely hate it, but as Kouketsu said text fighting always leaves open room for dispute. If a nice little battle between two characters ends up with verbal argument, then it usually ruins the roleplay when you scroll down the page only to find twenty posts of ranting on why one person won and name calling. What blows my mind he most is when a grown adult, can act like a five year old who just lost at Candy Land doesn’t think its fair his competitor just won the game. But then again, there are those who suck it up and act like a man…or woman…

I guess you could say Im probably one of those rare role players, seeing as I don’t mind losing one bit. To me what really matters is the kind of battle that ensues. I’ve normally determined that my character is going to end up losing, but my girl of course won’t go down without a hell of a fight.

The hard part is, what fights are going to actually be worth participating in? That usually depends on the quality of the posts, how detailed they are, and how much thought one put into it. If my competition doesn’t bother putting much effort into it and assumes he should win just because he is oh-so-awesome, then by all means I will just put my character to rest as quickly as possible. Those aren’t worth my time. However if my competition thinks about what he is posting, and seems to be understanding possible outcomes, and can attain my interest and make for a fun fight, then those are the ones I will really participate in. The losing doesn’t bother me at all, it’s more of the type of fight two people can have. But I do admit it truly is rare to find someone who can help produce a fun fight.

Last thing, I’ve also noticed the way some people are typing. In a way it’s like the context and perspective they put things in.

For example: Rin dodging the attack quickly grabbed his opponent by the arm, then swinging his sword down lodged it into his opponents stomach, twisting it then kicking him off.

Those are the types of posts that force things onto characters, making it less fun to play. Then there are these.

Example: Rin dodging the attack at the last second almost lost his footing, and could have ended up with a gory end. Shaking it out of his mind he lifted up his sword the thrust it towards his opponents stomach, hoping that it may be lucky enough to sink into his skin, bringing this fight to an end.

A post like that doesn’t give the “all power mighty” feeling. It kind of left room for flaw, showing the character isn’t perfect, and on top of that, instead of forcing an action onto the player, they suggested it. It gives the other poster the ability to think about what could occur, leaving the window of opportunity open for anything. I will freely admit though, there are times when putting a little force into a post is nessecary.

I will fess up too, Im not a perfect fighter, and there are some things I could probably take into consideration or add to detail my posts when it comes to text fighting, but its hard to get better when there are such poor text fight combatants out there. I actually came to the Grand Tournament hoping to read some of the battles and learn more, the first battle I read was poor sportsmanship. In short, yeah text combat sucks now a day, due to the childish behavior and pointless arguments of some combatants.

[Remæus]

Dio: The GT League is not the Grand Tournament.
The Grand Tournament is an event (a competition of fighters).
The GT League is a recordbook (it tracks fights all around the internet).

Oh, thank you for correcting me... a distinction has been noted... I guess what I mean to say then, is that I support the idea behind the Grand Tournament... As for the GT-League, that I'm not so sure of... I think fighters should keep that in their own little saved files, and maybe not share it with everyone on the internet. But as for the Grand Tournament... I like the idea, I think whoever started it deserves some credit. I would've joined this year's competition, but unfortunately I am just too busy nowadays to check the boards every single day when something happens... Sometimes, I might be around for 3-4 days straight, and then sometimes I won't be back to post for months at a time. This is why I switched to Paraform or forum-based TB textual combat, as opposed to Freeform or chat-based SB on-line fighting... And because I am not around as often as I once was, it is also difficult to find a good opponent to train, spar, or fight with. Everyone seems to be impatient nowadays, with the huge egotistical view that "Oh, I attacked you and you haven't posted in 2 weeks, therefore you must have accepted defeat". I am leaving town tomorrow and going to Miami, Florida to start my new career training as a certified nurse assistant. I am engaged to a beautiful girl, and we are expecting a baby in the next few months or so... So today will probably be my last visit for a while. That's why I opened a thread in the Library section called All There Is To Know About Textual Combat, because I wanted to share my saved documents with you before I dissapear once again into the real-world.

[NTS]

There's a perception that there is too much to lose...I suppose if one was worried about the death of a character, one would bend any rules (or break them) possible to "stay alive". There's also pride, I suppose..

[Remæus]

And hey, I've always said that the death of a character is the opportunity to make your next that much more interesting.

I think fighters should keep that in their own little saved files, and maybe not share it with everyone on the internet.

But then it doesn't mean anything but to them! The idea behind the GT League is to allow fighters to have one central place where both fighters have agreed upon the outcome of the match, and it gets attributed to both of their records on a very official basis. (As official as things can be without being limiting - and staying within the ideals of true freeform!)

[FattiMagoo]

For instance, a noob who was disrespectful by cursing obscenely or yelling profanities would be muted by the council. It was cool at Comicity because the council could actually restrict player's from posting priveleges without banning them from the Chat room. A player who cursed too much would be silenced for 30-seconds so they could only watch while everyone else in the room was having fun role-playing. A player who continually flooded the Chat screen with all-capital words would be booted from the room. .

It's funny, I never got booted for flooding the Chat screen with all capital words. In fact, as long as we're on the topic of discipline, I'm fairly certain I had absolutely none. You see, the all mighty council of OPs just couldn't keep up with the cleverness of the "undisciplined". While the disciplined were busy getting beat down like the dogs they were, the undisciplined were sitting in their corners, thinking of ways not to be punished. There were ways to make yourself invincible. I know I was. Looking back, it was a pretty good exercise in trolling, and I was proud to be apart of it. Turn and writhe in your coffin Comicity, forever snuggling with the chaos that overran you in your twilight years.

[Dionysus]

I suppose that's a true statement, Magoo... thank you for your input... seriously.

But so long as I am a member of this community, and so long as there are people like Ramaeus who remember what it was like... Comicity will always exist... perhaps not physically, but at least it's in here (**points to his heart**).

[FattiMagoo]

*single tear*

That was beautiful man.

[Dionysus]

I mean that seriously...

Do you know what it's like to meet someone on the other side? Did you ever give Dats to the people you roleplayed with? Were you ever in love with a girl you met on-line? Have you ever had an unexpected meeting with an on-line fighter before? Have you ever lost a real close RP friend? Did you ever know anyone who died in real life, while chatting with you on-line?

I know people who could say yes...